Sonoran Random Thoughts On the BRK Sonoran

[Solo1]

Seems like your getting some nice groups around 160 bar. .28 aint nothin to sneeze at

 

[Billm]

Seems like your getting some nice groups around 160 bar. .28 aint nothin to sneeze at

Yep, I’m glad you suggested the 5 bar increments

 

[Pumacarl]

Everyone seems to want to shoot their regulators as low as they can for more shot count or to make it easy on the gun, but to me that's ridiculous. It's not a horse, kindness isn't required. And more shots are only worth something if they are at your most accurate spot. I really believe that something that is mechanical, runs best in the middle of it's range. Too low, stiction; too high, it tops out. Either way, it causes a larger spread. I have found that most of the Huma regulators in my guns really perform well somewhere around 150b. I usually start in the middle and work both sides. That .28" group is awesome and exactly what I would be expecting from a BRK with a SubMOA barrel, congrats!

 

[Solo1]

Everyone seems to want to shoot their regulators as low as they can for more shot count or to make it easy on the gun, but to me that's ridiculous. It's not a horse, kindness isn't required. And more shots are only worth something if they are at your most accurate spot. I really believe that something that is mechanical, runs best in the middle of it's range. Too low, stiction; too high, it tops out. Either way, it causes a larger spread. I have found that most of the Huma regulators in my guns really perform well somewhere around 150b. I usually start in the middle and work both sides. That .28" group is awesome and exactly what I would be expecting from a BRK with a SubMOA barrel, congrats!

Ok so how do you explain my ghost with the sub moa barrel? Im not looking for the most shots but im also not looking to be wasting air. At 135 bar there was enough extra air coming out of the barrel to blow the mod off! Even at 100 bar and power wheel on max it sounds like there is air coming out after the projectile is gone. I tried a lighter spring but at 140 bar im overpowering the spring as velocity drops on max and still not getting the velocity i want?! This 150 bar thing is from years of everyone saying thats what you need mabe thats bs

 

[Billm]

Everyone seems to want to shoot their regulators as low as they can for more shot count or to make it easy on the gun, but to me that's ridiculous. It's not a horse, kindness isn't required. And more shots are only worth something if they are at your most accurate spot. I really believe that something that is mechanical, runs best in the middle of it's range. Too low, stiction; too high, it tops out. Either way, it causes a larger spread. I have found that most of the Huma regulators in my guns really perform well somewhere around 150b. I usually start in the middle and work both sides. That .28" group is awesome and exactly what I would be expecting from a BRK with a SubMOA barrel, congrats!

I just wanted to find the reg setting for the smallest groups.

 

[Pumacarl]

861fps, shots 31-33 on attached Chrono. It just so happens it was where the velocity maxed out.

Ok so how do you explain my ghost with the sub moa barrel? Im not looking for the most shots but im also not looking to be wasting air. At 135 bar there was enough extra air coming out of the barrel to blow the mod off! Even at 100 bar and power wheel on max it sounds like there is air coming out after the projectile is gone. I tried a lighter spring but at 140 bar im overpowering the spring as velocity drops on max and still not getting the velocity i want?! This 150 bar thing is from years of everyone saying thats what you need mabe thats bs

I obviously can't explain what anybody's individual gun is doing, as you are well aware I'm sure. There could be an issue anywhere, an out of spec spring or slightly over/under machined part from a bit at the end of it's life on the line, who knows? Everyone was saying 150b for years, because it was and is, true, for the guns we had/have. If newer guns are running lower, that's all well and good, but that does nothing to negate the fact that a moving part works best at its center range. It's the same for scopes. Nobody wants to have their scopes cranked to the edge in use. Some people go to great pains (me) to insure that they are at their optical center, as much as I can. If some of the new, super large port, airguns can run with low settings on a regulator, perhaps they should just be making a regulator where 100b was the middle the regulator range.Regulators need to change too in a balanced system. People (FX) keep asking their regs to do to much, instead of just designing new ones, they put in two, and people still complained. There's no easy answer here, but it sounds like you are having problems because there is something wrong with your individual gun, not all of them, and that is no bs.

 

[ctshooter]

Great groups. I really hope SubMOA makes some drop-in barrels for the RedWolf - I'd really like one in .25 and .30.

Everyone seems to want to shoot their regulators as low as they can for more shot count or to make it easy on the gun, but to me that's ridiculous. It's not a horse, kindness isn't required. And more shots are only worth something if they are at your most accurate spot. I really believe that something that is mechanical, runs best in the middle of it's range. Too low, stiction; too high, it tops out. Either way, it causes a larger spread. I have found that most of the Huma regulators in my guns really perform well somewhere around 150b. I usually start in the middle and work both sides. That .28" group is awesome and exactly what I would be expecting from a BRK with a SubMOA barrel, congrats!

I would generally tend to agree with you, but the way mine came tuned the reg is at 186bar (in installed a digital gauge). I am really hesitant to change it as my ES has been as low as 2-3 fps across a magazine. It shoots so nice I'm afraid to mess it up.

 

[Pumacarl]

Great groups. I really hope SubMOA makes some drop-in barrels for the RedWolf - I'd really like one in .25 and .30.

I would generally tend to agree with you, but the way mine came tuned the reg is at 186bar (in installed a digital gauge). I am really hesitant to change it as my ES has been as low as 2-3 fps across a magazine. It shoots so nice I'm afraid to mess it up.

I'm being misunderstood here big time. If it's working for you, high or low, that's awesome, leave it. All that I'm saying is, that regulators, and anything mechanical, works best at its middle point. That doesn't mean that this will be where your gun is the most accurate, just that your reg will be in optimal position. That's all. It seems to me that more factors have changed faster than reg design. Guns use to only take 200b(10 years ago), then they went to 250b, and very recently 300b, but still basically the same regulators. While at the same time, slug development had ports opening right up, plenums getting huge, hammers need to use tungsten. AAA regulators are built differently and work well, Huma needs an update.

 

[Centercut]

I have several questions for you more experienced slug shooters:
1. My best group was shot at 170 bar reg at 861fps. This is the same point that my velocity maxed out. There was no difference in velocity at 175 bar. What is the likelihood that the accuracy would improve if greater velocity was available or do you think 860 fps is a high enough velocity to fully stabilize the slug?
2. I have tried both JSB and these AEA slugs and they are two of the lightest slugs available (52gr +/-). Most other slugs are 60gr plus, does the Sonoran have enough power to even try these heavier slugs?

Take it out to 100Y and shoot five shot groups. If it’s stabilized at 100 it’ll be stabilized out to a couple hundred yards. Faster isn’t always better, plus your gun is maxed out at the power anyway. 50 yards is a start but it doesn’t really tell you that much.

 

[Danman]

Everyone seems to want to shoot their regulators as low as they can for more shot count or to make it easy on the gun, but to me that's ridiculous. It's not a horse, kindness isn't required. And more shots are only worth something if they are at your most accurate spot. I really believe that something that is mechanical, runs best in the middle of it's range. Too low, stiction; too high, it tops out. Either way, it causes a larger spread. I have found that most of the Huma regulators in my guns really perform well somewhere around 150b. I usually start in the middle and work both sides. That .28" group is awesome and exactly what I would be expecting from a BRK with a SubMOA barrel, congrats!

When the Ghost was new (check out the Ham/AGN chats) everyone and their brother was loosing their minds that their Huma regs came so "high" from the factory, and wasted zero time lowering them. Then the power wheel did almost nothing to change speeds and people where getting sticking internals, crappy/low first shots, etc. Eventually everyone dialed em back up to near factory specs. To achieve the factory max 65fpe in .22 you need 190Bar on the reg. No joke. (FX recommends a max reg pressure of 170B for ref) These Huma regs do prefer to be around 150 + - Bar.
Honestly @Bilm that kind of accuracy at 100Y with pellets would do it for me, lol! In .22 there is no pellet that can do that hence my driven slug shooting desires.

 

[Billm]

I’m happy shooting pellets. The slugs might be helpful to tame the winds I deal with. I’m really just playing around with everything. I had to take a step back over the past week and give it a rest lol.

 

[jps2486]

I'm being misunderstood here big time. If it's working for you, high or low, that's awesome, leave it. All that I'm saying is, that regulators, and anything mechanical, works best at its middle point. That doesn't mean that this will be where your gun is the most accurate, just that your reg will be in optimal position. That's all. It seems to me that more factors have changed faster than reg design. Guns use to only take 200b(10 years ago), then they went to 250b, and very recently 300b, but still basically the same regulators. While at the same time, slug development had ports opening right up, plenums getting huge, hammers need to use tungsten. AAA regulators are built differently and work well, Huma needs an update.

Each different brand of airgun’s internals operates at different levels of efficiency. While one will work well at lower reg settings, another needs higher settings to achieve the same levels of power. IMO, we don’t need reg development, we need work to improve and optimize internal airflow efficiency. Most airgun development at this point has been done by trial and error. It costs a lot of money to fully instrument a gun to study internal airflow so subtle changes can be made for best efficiency. Why can my 19 fpe Wolverine R get 160+ shots per fill while others of apparently similar configuration can only get 60?

 

[Pumacarl]

Each different brand of airgun’s internals operates at different levels of efficiency. While one will work well at lower reg settings, another needs higher settings to achieve the same levels of power. IMO, we don’t need reg development, we need work to improve and optimize internal airflow efficiency. Most airgun development at this point has been done by trial and error. It costs a lot of money to fully instrument a gun to study internal airflow so subtle changes can be made for best efficiency. Why can my 19 fpe Wolverine R get 160+ shots per fill while others of apparently similar configuration can only get 60?

Well, ... yeah, but who's going to do it, and then share the data? I have been told on these forums by the owner of AoA that good data about efficiencies was very valuable and not shared, on a discussion about plenums. So that leaves everyone who doesn't own a Wolverine to try for themselves doing trial and error. I used to read about a lot of trial and successes over at GTA with the Crosman modding crowd. I give them a lot of credit, and anyone that tries for better. Waiting for someone else to fix a problem, makes you get really good at waiting, and that's about it.

And we definitely need more reg development now more than ever. People looking to do 300b fills and regulate down to 90b are not getting it done very well with one currently. I believe that's why FX went to two, to lessen the load. Not many people seemed to like it either. Seems like more work needs to be done to me if we want to make use of higher pressure capable guns moving forward. That's not to say they shouldn't also improve the airway too.

 

[jps2486]

Well, ... yeah, but who's going to do it, and then share the data? I have been told on these forums by the owner of AoA that good data about efficiencies was very valuable and not shared, on a discussion about plenums. So that leaves everyone who doesn't own a Wolverine to try for themselves doing trial and error. I used to read about a lot of trial and successes over at GTA with the Crosman modding crowd. I give them a lot of credit, and anyone that tries for better. Waiting for someone else to fix a problem, makes you get really good at waiting, and that's about it.

And we definitely need more reg development now more than ever. People looking to do 300b fills and regulate down to 90b are not getting it done very well with one currently. I believe that's why FX went to two, to lessen the load. Not many people seemed to like it either. Seems like more work needs to be done to me if we want to make use of higher pressure capable guns moving forward. That's not to say they shouldn't also improve the airway too.

A manufacturer that spends his own money on R&D has no obligation to share it with anyone. In fact the results are proprietary and likely to improve his products and give him an advantage in the market. We don't need higher pressure guns, we need ones that can produce the power at normal pressures with less air useage. Most of the product improvements have been made by us, the users, who have experimented and shared with the rest. Thank you fellow shooters.

 

[Pumacarl]

A manufacturer that spends his own money on R&D has no obligation to share it with anyone. In fact the results are proprietary and likely to improve his products and give him an advantage in the market. We don't need higher pressure guns, we need ones that can produce the power at normal pressures with less air useage. Most of the product improvements have been made by us, the users, who have experimented and shared with the rest. Thank you fellow shooters.

Well, I certainly don't disagree, and that is kind of what I was saying.

About the pressure though, it is going up. There is no stopping it. And it isn't about need. It never is. People will either want it for more power or just more shots, without having to go to bigger bottles, or just a massive shot count out of a massive bottle. Regardless, if it's available they will want to take advantage of it for whatever reason suits them. There is no putting the Genie back in the bottle, there will be too much pressure, ha ha.

This whole discussion has played out so many times in just my lifetime about everything. The guy at IBM saying that people would never have computers in their homes; our teachers in school telling us we were not always going to have a calculator in our pocket; Fred Axelson saying in a video that he didn't see slug use becoming a thing and he wasn't planning on making a slug gun (yeah, I remember that video). Really high pressure isn't just coming, it's here, and it's not going anywhere but up.

 

[Solo1]

Well, I certainly don't disagree, and that is kind of what I was saying.

About the pressure though, it is going up. There is no stopping it. And it isn't about need. It never is. People will either want it for more power or just more shots, without having to go to bigger bottles, or just a massive shot count out of a massive bottle. Regardless, if it's available they will want to take advantage of it for whatever reason suits them. There is no putting the Genie back in the bottle, there will be too much pressure, ha ha.

This whole discussion has played out so many times in just my lifetime about everything. The guy at IBM saying that people would never have computers in their homes; our teachers in school telling us we were not always going to have a calculator in our pocket; Fred Axelson saying in a video that he didn't see slug use becoming a thing and he wasn't planning on making a slug gun (yeah, I remember that video). Really high pressure isn't just coming, it's here, and it's not going anywhere but up.

I don’t know if thats necessarily so. My ghost with the sub moa slug barrel in 30 will push 45.5 gr slugs to 900 fps at 100 bar and give 49 shots out of a 580 bottle! Thats pressure going down in my mind

 

[Pumacarl]

I don’t know if thats necessarily so. My ghost with the sub moa slug barrel in 30 will push 45.5 gr slugs to 900 fps at 100 bar and give 49 shots out of a 580 bottle! Thats pressure going down in my mind

We'll see. I'd love to see some aspects of this sport slow down or go away but time marches on and things rarely take a step back.

 

[Luis Leon]

Well, I certainly don't disagree, and that is kind of what I was saying.

About the pressure though, it is going up. There is no stopping it. And it isn't about need. It never is. People will either want it for more power or just more shots, without having to go to bigger bottles, or just a massive shot count out of a massive bottle. Regardless, if it's available they will want to take advantage of it for whatever reason suits them. There is no putting the Genie back in the bottle, there will be too much pressure, ha ha.

This whole discussion has played out so many times in just my lifetime about everything. The guy at IBM saying that people would never have computers in their homes; our teachers in school telling us we were not always going to have a calculator in our pocket; Fred Axelson saying in a video that he didn't see slug use becoming a thing and he wasn't planning on making a slug gun (yeah, I remember that video). Really high pressure isn't just coming, it's here, and it's not going anywhere but up.

Yup, pushing the envelope… Those seeking “mucho mas”? Why not simply stick to powder burners? Low power goodness is just that… Me? Am to old to chase anything but my wife…

 

[Pumacarl]

Yup, pushing the envelope… Those seeking “mucho mas”? Why not simply stick to powder burners? Low power goodness is just that… Me? Am to old to chase anything but my wife…

Then you're not 'that' old. lol

 

[jps2486]

Yup, pushing the envelope… Those seeking “mucho mas”? Why not simply stick to powder burners? Low power goodness is just that… Me? Am to old to chase anything but my wife…

I'm so old that I can't even chase my wife anymore, and if I caught her, I forgot what to do! Anyway, I think it's kinda proven that Mach 1 is a limiting factor for airguns, so what the hell are pushing more for? Oh yeah, macho for those with short johnsons. That's why BMF pickup trucks are so popular.