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Realistic Expectations

Franklink

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Based on some recent comments and conversations, it seems that many airgunners expect a gun to come out of the box performing at its peak potential. I understand the idea of "I paid the premium for a high-end airgun, the very first 5 shot group at 100 yards out of the box should be submoa." Or, the "there's no excuse for a new $2, 3, 4k etc airgun to not be able to shoot starling eyes at 100 yards right after I sight it in." In these discussions, we even see the warranty claims folks jump in and be upset that their gun doesn't shoot as good as so and so's gun, so they should be eligible for replacement until it does. All of that is not in-line with reality. Outside of custom guns, built to a specific purpose, using a specific projectile, airguns simply don't come out of the box shooting to their highest potential.

And this is why.
  • Airguns perform best at certain pressures. Each one is unique. Even regulated guns sometimes prefer that you stop shooting 20-30 bar above the reg pressure, or don't fill to the max working pressure. The only way to figure this out is to spend time shooting it.
  • Airguns come out of the box with the adjustments at a certain configuration. The odds of THAT OEM configuration agreeing with whatever projectile you want to shoot from it are slim to none. And the odds of it performing its best with those configurations and your chosen projectile are even slimmer. And guess what....the pressures mentioned a second ago are likely to change when you figure out what projectile you want to shoot versus the projectile the barrel wants to shoot.
  • The OEM regulator set pressure is likely to need changed from OEM to match your desires and purpose for the gun.
  • The hammer spring tension will need to be figured out. High reg/low hammer tension? or low reg/high hammer tension? Only way to know what's best is to test it out and see. Sometimes what you're wanting to do will require a different hammer spring rate than the OEM spring.
  • Barrel
    • You can't change the twist rate of the barrel. And that twist rate is only appropriate for certain projectiles at certain speeds. The owners decision to shoot a projectile at xyz fps (or at any fps) that doesn't match the twist rate doesn't make the gun faulty, nor does it make a warranty claim.
    • Choke/no choke, again, projectile choice versus the gun you chose to buy.
    • How often do you need to clean the barrel? Gotta figure that out, cuz accuracy will go south when it needs cleaned. Warranty claim for a dirty barrel, hell no.
    • What does the barrel clean entail to get back to good shooting? Gotta figure that out through trial and error. Is it the manufacturers responsibility to warranty a leaded up barrel after you decided to shoot cheap and hard high antimony content pellets through it for too long before you decided to address how leaded up it is? Nope.
    • Yes, barrels can sometimes be coaxed into agreeing with what you want it to shoot from polishing, and/or lapping.
  • Plenum size. You bought an airgun with a plenum too big for what you want to do. You bought an airgun with a plenum too small for what you want to do. Warranty claim? Nope. You should have researched your purchase better, ie, you bought the wrong gun for your intended purpose.
  • Projectiles. You spend a couple weeks to a couple months figuring all of the above out, and have a sweet deal going. Your gun shoots like you want it to. Then the manufacturer changes the projectile slightly. Or discontinues it altogether.
In short, variables. Lots and lots of variables. To get peak performance, all of them need to be experimented with, studied, compared.

What we don't see when a guy wins a big competition, is all of the work that went into getting that gun to shoot the way it does. And occasionally somebody with rose-colored glasses will say they didn't do much to make it look like it was all the shooter and not the gun, but they did. They at least polished the barrel and spent some time vetting projectiles and settings to see what it shoots best and at what speeds. Massaged the trigger to suit them, played with various moderators, etc.

Achieving high performance (or being competitive if that's your thing) from/with an airgun is typically a long, drawn out process. It's not realistic to expect that paying more money means you get to skip all the steps.

Warranties cover defects. Paying for a gun with a good warranty doesn't equate to a shortcut to the winners circle or a short cut to sub-moa groups.

What paying for a high-end gun DOES get a guy, is a much more refined user experience. Paying for high-end gets you long term support for the gun. And of course, if there's a defect in the manufacture of a certain component of the gun, that's where the warranty kicks in. And, once you've worked through the necessary steps to figure out how to get the gun to shoot your chosen projectile, high-end is highly likely to outshoot budget guns.

As a parallel conversation....I have a gun that has been re-barreled 7 times. Sometimes the barrel a gun comes with simply doesn't want to do what you want the gun to do. That was the case here. The OEM barrel shot a low BC/low weight pellet extremely well. But I wanted a high BC/high weight pellet to shoot out of the gun, and I wanted it to shoot extremely well. Since my wants and the reality of the gun didn't match, I had to pay for barrels and machining until I found one that would shoot at a level that I wanted the gun to shoot. It also required swapping parts around, valve components, etc to get it to produce the fpe that I wanted. In short, the gun I bought didn't match what I wanted it to do, so I had to customize it to get it to do what I wanted it to do.


A picture is worth a thousand words...
PXL_20260207_170008486.jpg



Both of these pages were shot from the same gun, same barrel, same settings. But each is with a different batch of the supposedly same pellets. Left side is probably something like 2.5-3" average group size. The six groups on the right average 1.06", which is 1.015MOA. The pellets on the left will shoot like the one on the right, but the pellet on the left needs 25-30 more feet per second to do it. Because the pellet manufacturer changed the skirt slightly and shifted the center of gravity.

Without the investment of time to do the experimentation and a comparison, the owner of the gun responsible for the left side would be complaining to the manufacturer. While the owner of the gun on the left would be quite pleased. But we know these were both from the same gun. (Variables).
 
Very nice write up 👍🙂 It all comes down to a lot of testing and adjusting and staying within the “boundaries” of your barrel setup 👍🙂🎯
Thanks Soren. Being meticulous in comparisons and documentation of the results is rewarded with accuracy/precision.

The accuracy results you share are a perfect illustration of the embodiment of this concept.
 
@Franklink very nice and 100% with yuo.

I did want to add I do see many cheaper gun companies trying to imply that theirs guns shoot SUB MOA out of the box I wonder how much that adds to the expectations on all guns?

of course no one want a gun you couldn't hit a five gallon bucket out of the box with there are reasonable expectiontions but not sure I would venture to off a figure?
at any rate I will pin this topic for a bi5t.
pan
 
Based on some recent comments and conversations, it seems that many airgunners expect a gun to come out of the box performing at its peak potential. I understand the idea of "I paid the premium for a high-end airgun, the very first 5 shot group at 100 yards out of the box should be submoa." Or, the "there's no excuse for a new $2, 3, 4k etc airgun to not be able to shoot starling eyes at 100 yards right after I sight it in." In these discussions, we even see the warranty claims folks jump in and be upset that their gun doesn't shoot as good as so and so's gun, so they should be eligible for replacement until it does. All of that is not in-line with reality. Outside of custom guns, built to a specific purpose, using a specific projectile, airguns simply don't come out of the box shooting to their highest potential.

And this is why.
  • Airguns perform best at certain pressures. Each one is unique. Even regulated guns sometimes prefer that you stop shooting 20-30 bar above the reg pressure, or don't fill to the max working pressure. The only way to figure this out is to spend time shooting it.
  • Airguns come out of the box with the adjustments at a certain configuration. The odds of THAT OEM configuration agreeing with whatever projectile you want to shoot from it are slim to none. And the odds of it performing its best with those configurations and your chosen projectile are even slimmer. And guess what....the pressures mentioned a second ago are likely to change when you figure out what projectile you want to shoot versus the projectile the barrel wants to shoot.
  • The OEM regulator set pressure is likely to need changed from OEM to match your desires and purpose for the gun.
  • The hammer spring tension will need to be figured out. High reg/low hammer tension? or low reg/high hammer tension? Only way to know what's best is to test it out and see. Sometimes what you're wanting to do will require a different hammer spring rate than the OEM spring.
  • Barrel
    • You can't change the twist rate of the barrel. And that twist rate is only appropriate for certain projectiles at certain speeds. The owners decision to shoot a projectile at xyz fps (or at any fps) that doesn't match the twist rate doesn't make the gun faulty, nor does it make a warranty claim.
    • Choke/no choke, again, projectile choice versus the gun you chose to buy.
    • How often do you need to clean the barrel? Gotta figure that out, cuz accuracy will go south when it needs cleaned. Warranty claim for a dirty barrel, hell no.
    • What does the barrel clean entail to get back to good shooting? Gotta figure that out through trial and error. Is it the manufacturers responsibility to warranty a leaded up barrel after you decided to shoot cheap and hard high antimony content pellets through it for too long before you decided to address how leaded up it is? Nope.
    • Yes, barrels can sometimes be coaxed into agreeing with what you want it to shoot from polishing, and/or lapping.
  • Plenum size. You bought an airgun with a plenum too big for what you want to do. You bought an airgun with a plenum too small for what you want to do. Warranty claim? Nope. You should have researched your purchase better, ie, you bought the wrong gun for your intended purpose.
  • Projectiles. You spend a couple weeks to a couple months figuring all of the above out, and have a sweet deal going. Your gun shoots like you want it to. Then the manufacturer changes the projectile slightly. Or discontinues it altogether.
In short, variables. Lots and lots of variables. To get peak performance, all of them need to be experimented with, studied, compared.

What we don't see when a guy wins a big competition, is all of the work that went into getting that gun to shoot the way it does. And occasionally somebody with rose-colored glasses will say they didn't do much to make it look like it was all the shooter and not the gun, but they did. They at least polished the barrel and spent some time vetting projectiles and settings to see what it shoots best and at what speeds. Massaged the trigger to suit them, played with various moderators, etc.

Achieving high performance (or being competitive if that's your thing) from/with an airgun is typically a long, drawn out process. It's not realistic to expect that paying more money means you get to skip all the steps.

Warranties cover defects. Paying for a gun with a good warranty doesn't equate to a shortcut to the winners circle or a short cut to sub-moa groups.

What paying for a high-end gun DOES get a guy, is a much more refined user experience. Paying for high-end gets you long term support for the gun. And of course, if there's a defect in the manufacture of a certain component of the gun, that's where the warranty kicks in. And, once you've worked through the necessary steps to figure out how to get the gun to shoot your chosen projectile, high-end is highly likely to outshoot budget guns.

As a parallel conversation....I have a gun that has been re-barreled 7 times. Sometimes the barrel a gun comes with simply doesn't want to do what you want the gun to do. That was the case here. The OEM barrel shot a low BC/low weight pellet extremely well. But I wanted a high BC/high weight pellet to shoot out of the gun, and I wanted it to shoot extremely well. Since my wants and the reality of the gun didn't match, I had to pay for barrels and machining until I found one that would shoot at a level that I wanted the gun to shoot. It also required swapping parts around, valve components, etc to get it to produce the fpe that I wanted. In short, the gun I bought didn't match what I wanted it to do, so I had to customize it to get it to do what I wanted it to do.


A picture is worth a thousand words...
PXL_20260207_170008486.jpg



Both of these pages were shot from the same gun, same barrel, same settings. But each is with a different batch of the supposedly same pellets. Left side is probably something like 2.5-3" average group size. The six groups on the right average 1.06", which is 1.015MOA. The pellets on the left will shoot like the one on the right, but the pellet on the left needs 25-30 more feet per second to do it. Because the pellet manufacturer changed the skirt slightly and shifted the center of gravity.

Without the investment of time to do the experimentation and a comparison, the owner of the gun responsible for the left side would be complaining to the manufacturer. While the owner of the gun on the left would be quite pleased. But we know these were both from the same gun. (Variables).
Should the average person have to go through all that you did to get an almost $4000 airgun to shoot well when he could buy a $500 air gun that will shoot just as well? Should a person be expected to redesign a $4000 airgun to get it to shoot? Are the guns now only meant to be bought by airgun smiths?
 
Should the average person have to go through all that you did to get an almost $4000 airgun to shoot well when he could buy a $500 air gun that will shoot just as well? Should a person be expected to redesign a $4000 airgun to get it to shoot? Are the guns now only meant to be bought by airgun smiths?
I know you shoot field target.
Answer truthfully...did you spend any time setting up your field target guns?
"Tune" is the verb we typically see when talking about working through the variables.
 
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not going to answer for Franklink but I will offer its a big issue for all retailers.

persanally I dont think theres anything wrong with some expectations
I would guess that you’re probably referring to the various negative comments about the Blackwolf and/or the ART barrels. I don’t think it’s too much to expect a $3800 air rifle to shoot basic groups straight out of the box. I fully understand needing to carefully tune the rifle and find the right projectile to achieve the best accuracy, that is not what we are discussing. No one should expect to have to put a piece of pvc pipe into the internals of any airgun, no matter what the price to get it to shoot the caliber it was sold in correctly.
 
I would that you’re probably referring to the various negative comments about the Blackwolf and/or the ART barrels. I don’t think it’s too much to expect a $3800 air rifle to shoot basic groups straight out of the box. I fully understand needing to carefully tune the rifle and find the right projectile to achieve the best accuracy, that is not what we are discussing. No one should expect to have to put a piece of pvc pipe into the internals of any airgun, no matter what the price to get it to shoot the caliber it was sold in correctly.
actually I ws referring to all price not considered although I know the topic is high end and my expectation for high end is up there I fall into the for that money I should just be able to shoot it group.
 
Should the average person have to go through all that you did to get an almost $4000 airgun to shoot well when he could buy a $500 air gun that will shoot just as well? Should a person be expected to redesign a $4000 airgun to get it to shoot? Are the guns now only meant to be bought by airgun smiths?
I have said this a lot recently and here it goes again, the "average" person does not buy a $4000 airgun, and they certainly are not any of us. I have a $500 airgun that I did get to shoot as well as my $4,000 gun, and I actually like both equally. You are only going to get out of these guns, what you put into them. Cash just gets you quality components to manipulate or configure to what you want to do. That's it. You still have to know what you're doing. Buying an airplane doesn't make you a pilot. So, yeah, you do have to be a serious hobbiest (not exactly an airgun smith)to get any of these guns to work for you, if you want them to do anything besides what you bought them set up to do. That's what it's all about to someone who really wants to get into the hobby and enjoy the fringes, otherwise they really should just get the $500 gun, they can indeed shoot just as accurately and be just as much fun, if you're not going to be switching things around all the time. I never, and will never, understand why people buy things that are purposely made to be adjusted and tweaked, and then never touch them, but it's your money do what you want. I think most of those folks would be happier with a Thomas, AAA, Raw at the high end or an unregulated AirForce, or even the good'ole Marauder at the low end, but that's just a guess.

@Franklink's post should be made into a sticky. It covers a lot and is well written.
 
I would guess that you’re probably referring to the various negative comments about the Blackwolf and/or the ART barrels. I don’t think it’s too much to expect a $3800 air rifle to shoot basic groups straight out of the box. I fully understand needing to carefully tune the rifle and find the right projectile to achieve the best accuracy, that is not what we are discussing. No one should expect to have to put a piece of pvc pipe into the internals of any airgun, no matter what the price to get it to shoot the caliber it was sold in correctly.
And it did shoot decent groups straight out of the box, when using a particular projectile (slugs). That's the variables part of this. And that's not new. If I tried to shoot 16 grain pellets out of a .177 HW30s it wouldn't go well. HW30 has been around for 50+ years I'd guess, but same concept....wrong projectile for the gun. That's simply an airgun reality.
 
And it did shoot decent groups straight out of the box, when using a particular projectile (slugs). That's the variables part of this. And that's not new. If I tried to shoot 16 grain pellets out of a .177 HW30s it wouldn't go well. HW30 has been around for 50+ years I'd guess, but same concept....wrong projectile for the gun. That's simply an airgun reality.
Is the blackwolf only a slug gun and if so why is it not listed that way?
 
Is the blackwolf only a slug gun and if so why is it not listed that way?
In the "HiLite" configuration that they sent me, without some intervention, yes. Or at least to shoot to what I consider acceptably.

There are of course other configurations, and ones not designated "HiLite," which has historically been Daystate's nomenclature for big powah!!!
 

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