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Realistic Expectations

If it makes you feel any better: that reply was written yesterday as more of a tongue in cheek post and I decided not to finish or post it. I decided that it might not be seen as being facetious, unless I added some more context. Then I responded to Danman today and didn’t realize it was still there. I really didn’t want to rekindle this discussion, as in my mind it’s not really progressing. In my case I just hope to see more real world results from purchasers. Reports from the field so to speak.

For me the jury is out on the Blackwolf. I want to purchase a dedicated 100yd benchrest rifle and it may be the BW is the one, I haven’t decided yet. That’s the main reason I care. I’ve read your BW thread on AGN and there are several posts in the thread by owners that are less than Stellar. Including one who stated that his $450 Barra 250z is more accurate than his Blackwolf. Cave dweller made a point to post on here that the Blackwolf is capable of 1.5” or better groups at 55yds. I would certainly hope it is, my $279 non-adjustable Alpha with a 12” barrel is capable of that. There is one UK YouTuber that has struggled to get his BW to shoot well. Several Blackwolf owners in the UK Facebook groups have complained about the accuracy. There are also a lot of BW reviews that are very complimentary and a lot of those shooters didn’t purchase their rifles. You keep implying that everyone expects too much from an out of the box multi-thousand dollar air rifle. I don’t think that it is the case, at least not in my case. I expect it to perform better out of the box than a less expensive rifle and be tuneable to a higher level of accuracy. In simple terms I would expect it to be inherently more accurate than a lesser rifle. Whether or not I can shoot it to it’s potential accuracy is really irrelevant. I can work on skills, I enjoy the discussion, if anything I say is offensive, it’s not meant to be and will refrain if anyone is offended or mad.
Tony Belas stated on video at the British Shooting Show that the thing that differentiates Daystate from Chinese, Czech and Turkish airgun manufactures is not price, but that their rifles are hand built and “SUPERBLY ACCURATE”.

At the very least I would expect the 5x5 100yd groups from a $4000 rifle to have a substantially lower average group size than those from a $2000 rifle from the same manufacturer when setup and shot by an expert tuner.

You’re also right that the barrels are crucial to the accuracy, they’re also usually turned in Swiss CNC Centers.
Some context to add here.

I don't remember seeing Cavedwellers comments about 1.5" @ 55, but I can almost guarantee he's talking about a 19fpe .177, and probably from field target position, where he's supporting the gun to shoot it. Simply cuz that's the type of shooting he typically does.

As for "lot of BW reviews that are very complimentary and a lot of those shooters didn’t purchase their rifles." Feels like a dig.

This link will take you to my report of the OEM BW. Blackwolf - Blackwolf and Sub-MOA Barrels Review

I didn't feel it was "very complimentary." As I concluded in that post, the first shooting session with it in OEM form for me were promising, but not of the level to warrant me gushing over them.
 
Some context to add here.

I don't remember seeing Cavedwellers comments about 1.5" @ 55, but I can almost guarantee he's talking about a 19fpe .177, and probably from field target position, where he's supporting the gun to shoot it. Simply cuz that's the type of shooting he typically does.

As for "lot of BW reviews that are very complimentary and a lot of those shooters didn’t purchase their rifles." Feels like a dig.

This link will take you to my report of the OEM BW. Blackwolf - Blackwolf and Sub-MOA Barrels Review

I didn't feel it was "very complimentary." As I concluded in that post, the first shooting session with it in OEM form for me were promising, but not of the level to warrant me gushing over them.
It wasn’t a dig at you, it was a dig at all of the YouTubers that fail to comply with their policy of stating whether or not there was any sponsorship or quid pro quo. My view of that is based upon all of the reviews the 250z and the Microstrike. But, to be fair it goes against human nature/psychology not to have any bias, at the very least on the subconscious level. Not a dig, just a probable fact for most of us.
 
Are you specifically referring to the BW, Daystate or any Airgun?

If so, at what price point are you referring to?
I wasn’t pointing at BW, Daystate, or any specific brand. I’m talking in general. For me, even on a $600 PCP up to a $2,500 PCP, the factory barrel should already be capable of doing the job the rifle is sold for. If a gun in that range needs a different barrel just to shoot right, I’d rather move it along. At those prices, accuracy shouldn’t depend on buying another barrel.
 
Wow!! All of this heady talk is making me feel totally inadequate.
Like a complete dufuss, I did a little bit of “research” regarding what i thought was a reasonably good gun, bought it and a bunch of different pellets, went to my back yard and shot them all until I found what the gun liked.
I dont know how many hours Pyramid put into perfectly tuning my Zelos before delivery but it shoots way better than I do and the groups change not at all between 25 and 37 yards. Maybe it’s the $50.00 NC Star scope that I slapped on it… Nope! it shoots exactly the same with my wonderful $1000.00 DNT thermnight rat hunting toy.
I feel badly that the Zelos loses exactly Zero air when the wife and I are gone for a month and I come home to find that it is exactly how i left it.
The kids and grandkids come over and we shoot it until we are all worn out and hungry, I wander around the dairy in freezing temperatures shooting rats and it performs flawlessly 80 plus shots per trip.
What am i doing wrong?
 
What am i doing wrong?

You're not doing anything wrong, but, and speaking very frankly, your expectations are spectacularly lower than someone who has a goal of being competitive in any flavor of airgun competition.

Let us know how it does on your next 100 yard card, or at the next field target match.

Now, pulling back on my reciprocal snark...
Nothing wrong with enjoying simplicity and budget options. Were it not for competing, I wouldnt have need of quite a few of my airguns, and would also be happy with the performance I was getting from some of my earliest ones. Almost all airguns are fun. I don't think there's a wrong way to enjoy them.
 
Nothing as far as I know… There is plenty of room in this hobby or whatever someone wants to call it, for everyone.

And anyone who doesn’t like that opinion can go pound sand 😉.
Same sentiment here, we were typing at the same time.

Bout the only way to NOT enjoy airguns is to go out of your way to be universally bitter, you know, run smear campaigns and gripe -fests on guns never shot or owned. That kind of stuff. 🙄
 
I have read the whole thread here. My response is directly to post 100. Not anything else regarding out of the box expectations and proper tuning.

As an importer of mass produced products I completely agree with everything you said above. My thoughts with barrels is... The full curve applies to budget guns. Hell, I'd even go as far as anything sub $2500. But at or north of $3k, I don't think it would be an unreasonable expectation for internal QC to catch 99% of the guns outside the 1% standard deviation and repaired prior to distribution. These aren't the car equivalent to the +100,000 per model in sales per year. More like the specialty high end sports car that has 1000's of units a year, where the QC is much tighter.
I cannot disagree with your logic, however as a, hopefully discerning consumer, I will state categorically that in my world, any airgun hoping to drag my hard earned $$ out of my greedy pocket, had better be well above average to press past the $1000.00 mark. Superiority complexes, anodized aluminum and laser etched logos are not what I want prioritized in my equipment. Quality components, engineering and dependability are what I will demand.
 
Based on some recent comments and conversations, it seems that many airgunners expect a gun to come out of the box performing at its peak potential. I understand the idea of "I paid the premium for a high-end airgun, the very first 5 shot group at 100 yards out of the box should be submoa." Or, the "there's no excuse for a new $2, 3, 4k etc airgun to not be able to shoot starling eyes at 100 yards right after I sight it in." In these discussions, we even see the warranty claims folks jump in and be upset that their gun doesn't shoot as good as so and so's gun, so they should be eligible for replacement until it does. All of that is not in-line with reality. Outside of custom guns, built to a specific purpose, using a specific projectile, airguns simply don't come out of the box shooting to their highest potential.

And this is why.
  • Airguns perform best at certain pressures. Each one is unique. Even regulated guns sometimes prefer that you stop shooting 20-30 bar above the reg pressure, or don't fill to the max working pressure. The only way to figure this out is to spend time shooting it.
  • Airguns come out of the box with the adjustments at a certain configuration. The odds of THAT OEM configuration agreeing with whatever projectile you want to shoot from it are slim to none. And the odds of it performing its best with those configurations and your chosen projectile are even slimmer. And guess what....the pressures mentioned a second ago are likely to change when you figure out what projectile you want to shoot versus the projectile the barrel wants to shoot.
  • The OEM regulator set pressure is likely to need changed from OEM to match your desires and purpose for the gun.
  • The hammer spring tension will need to be figured out. High reg/low hammer tension? or low reg/high hammer tension? Only way to know what's best is to test it out and see. Sometimes what you're wanting to do will require a different hammer spring rate than the OEM spring.
  • Barrel
    • You can't change the twist rate of the barrel. And that twist rate is only appropriate for certain projectiles at certain speeds. The owners decision to shoot a projectile at xyz fps (or at any fps) that doesn't match the twist rate doesn't make the gun faulty, nor does it make a warranty claim.
    • Choke/no choke, again, projectile choice versus the gun you chose to buy.
    • How often do you need to clean the barrel? Gotta figure that out, cuz accuracy will go south when it needs cleaned. Warranty claim for a dirty barrel, hell no.
    • What does the barrel clean entail to get back to good shooting? Gotta figure that out through trial and error. Is it the manufacturers responsibility to warranty a leaded up barrel after you decided to shoot cheap and hard high antimony content pellets through it for too long before you decided to address how leaded up it is? Nope.
    • Yes, barrels can sometimes be coaxed into agreeing with what you want it to shoot from polishing, and/or lapping.
  • Plenum size. You bought an airgun with a plenum too big for what you want to do. You bought an airgun with a plenum too small for what you want to do. Warranty claim? Nope. You should have researched your purchase better, ie, you bought the wrong gun for your intended purpose.
  • Projectiles. You spend a couple weeks to a couple months figuring all of the above out, and have a sweet deal going. Your gun shoots like you want it to. Then the manufacturer changes the projectile slightly. Or discontinues it altogether.
In short, variables. Lots and lots of variables. To get peak performance, all of them need to be experimented with, studied, compared.

What we don't see when a guy wins a big competition, is all of the work that went into getting that gun to shoot the way it does. And occasionally somebody with rose-colored glasses will say they didn't do much to make it look like it was all the shooter and not the gun, but they did. They at least polished the barrel and spent some time vetting projectiles and settings to see what it shoots best and at what speeds. Massaged the trigger to suit them, played with various moderators, etc.

Achieving high performance (or being competitive if that's your thing) from/with an airgun is typically a long, drawn out process. It's not realistic to expect that paying more money means you get to skip all the steps.

Warranties cover defects. Paying for a gun with a good warranty doesn't equate to a shortcut to the winners circle or a short cut to sub-moa groups.

What paying for a high-end gun DOES get a guy, is a much more refined user experience. Paying for high-end gets you long term support for the gun. And of course, if there's a defect in the manufacture of a certain component of the gun, that's where the warranty kicks in. And, once you've worked through the necessary steps to figure out how to get the gun to shoot your chosen projectile, high-end is highly likely to outshoot budget guns.

As a parallel conversation....I have a gun that has been re-barreled 7 times. Sometimes the barrel a gun comes with simply doesn't want to do what you want the gun to do. That was the case here. The OEM barrel shot a low BC/low weight pellet extremely well. But I wanted a high BC/high weight pellet to shoot out of the gun, and I wanted it to shoot extremely well. Since my wants and the reality of the gun didn't match, I had to pay for barrels and machining until I found one that would shoot at a level that I wanted the gun to shoot. It also required swapping parts around, valve components, etc to get it to produce the fpe that I wanted. In short, the gun I bought didn't match what I wanted it to do, so I had to customize it to get it to do what I wanted it to do.


A picture is worth a thousand words...
PXL_20260207_170008486.jpg



Both of these pages were shot from the same gun, same barrel, same settings. But each is with a different batch of the supposedly same pellets. Left side is probably something like 2.5-3" average group size. The six groups on the right average 1.06", which is 1.015MOA. The pellets on the left will shoot like the one on the right, but the pellet on the left needs 25-30 more feet per second to do it. Because the pellet manufacturer changed the skirt slightly and shifted the center of gravity.

Without the investment of time to do the experimentation and a comparison, the owner of the gun responsible for the left side would be complaining to the manufacturer. While the owner of the gun on the left would be quite pleased. But we know these were both from the same gun. (Variables).
My expectations are that if you sell something it should work the first time, regardless of all the other problems that I don't care about, just what I bought and paid for with my money.
If I have a problem, I'm always polite and respectful to get the problem resolved.
When I see someone post the new $450 or more gun doesn't shoot right, I'm very disappointed, regardless of excuses.

Respect your time and efforts. Hope you see mine to.
 
I have said this a lot recently and here it goes again, the "average" person does not buy a $4000 airgun, and they certainly are not any of us. I have a $500 airgun that I did get to shoot as well as my $4,000 gun, and I actually like both equally. You are only going to get out of these guns, what you put into them. Cash just gets you quality components to manipulate or configure to what you want to do. That's it. You still have to know what you're doing. Buying an airplane doesn't make you a pilot. So, yeah, you do have to be a serious hobbiest (not exactly an airgun smith)to get any of these guns to work for you, if you want them to do anything besides what you bought them set up to do. That's what it's all about to someone who really wants to get into the hobby and enjoy the fringes, otherwise they really should just get the $500 gun, they can indeed shoot just as accurately and be just as much fun, if you're not going to be switching things around all the time. I never, and will never, understand why people buy things that are purposely made to be adjusted and tweaked, and then never touch them, but it's your money do what you want. I think most of those folks would be happier with a Thomas, AAA, Raw at the high end or an unregulated AirForce, or even the good'ole Marauder at the low end, but that's just a guess.

@Franklink's post should be made into a sticky. It covers a lot and is well written.
Your right, some of us are blessed a little more than others and have more time.
This topic kinda irks me and I like seeing others in agreement. We can force changes that way, kind of.
 

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