Realistic Expectations

[Pumacarl]

My comment is simply pointing out that in my opinion some industry compensated influencers add to the unrealistic expectations.

I was going to stay out of this thread, because of the "heated undercurrent" nature of all of this, for sure. However, I just can't bring myself to not comment on the opinion stated by @FL22 up above, because it has been said so many times, by so many, that new people might think that it is the undisputed truth, and not just an opinion. And NO, I'm not picking on @FL22, for having a different opinion than mine, I'm just pointing out that in my opinion, I think that he, and others, who have talked about "unrealistic expectations" are actually wrong.

It is my opinion that there is nothing being done by anybody, that can't be matched by someone else, if they actaully really want to. To tell anyone that it is unrealistic for them to expect, or do, what someone else does right in front of them is rather insulting. No, it isn't easy, and they very well likely 'might' not want to put in the work, but if they want to make it happen, it will. Why do so many people not have any faith in other hobbiest to have the same amount of dedication to their pursuit as the guys they are watching on YouTube? Insanity is often joked about, doing the same thing wrong over and over and expecting a different result, but the reverse is true too, do the same thing correctly over and over and you can expect the same result. That's reality. Everybody needs to stop telling others what they should expect from themselves and their efforts. It would be more helpful to point out, to newbies, what it actually took to make all those results actually happen; the time, experience, dedication, and yes, money, than to just throw shade and say, "yeah, don't expect any of that to happen for you!" That's what these forums are for, to help, not just for sour graping others. There's my "heated undercurrent" lol

 

[Franklink]

I think that you should reread my post. It in no way was it worded as an accusation towards you or anyone specific.

However I realize that this thread is carrying some heated undercurrent.

My comment is simply pointing out that in my opinion some industry compensated influencers add to the unrealistic expectations.

But I will say that your reaction to it is interesting, perhaps you should take a step back and look at the entire thread.

Yes, I misunderstood your intent there.

Getting called an influencer is a hot button for me, for exactly the reasons you stated. Influencers try to convince people to buy a particular product, usually through half-truths and or less than transparent content sharing.

I agree with you that the YouTube types haven't exactly made our hobby better. Many people don't seem to realize the promotional nature of all of that.

My "reviews" are a warts and all approach. I share the bad groups and I share the good groups. I share what I like about the gun and what I don't like. And I share the steps it takes to get a gun to shoot good groups, even expensive guns.

I've always used the word "review" but have also never quite liked it. "Analysis" or "deep-dive" or "in-hand/first-hand product research" are all probably better descriptors of what I try to do when I cover a gun.

 

[Franklink]

I was going to stay out of this thread, because of the "heated undercurrent" nature of all of this, for sure. However, I just can't bring myself to not comment on the opinion stated by @FL22 up above, because it has been said so many times, by so many, that new people might think that it is the undisputed truth, and not just an opinion. And NO, I'm not picking on @FL22, for having a different opinion than mine, I'm just pointing out that in my opinion, I think that he, and others, who have talked about "unrealistic expectations" are actually wrong.

It is my opinion that there is nothing being done by anybody, that can't be matched by someone else, if they actaully really want to. To tell anyone that it is unrealistic for them to expect, or do, what someone else does right in front of them is rather insulting. No, it isn't easy, and they very well likely 'might' not want to put in the work, but if they want to make it happen, it will. Why do so many people not have any faith in other hobbiest to have the same amount of dedication to their pursuit as the guys they are watching on YouTube? Insanity is often joked about, doing the same thing wrong over and over and expecting a different result, but the reverse is true too, do the same thing correctly over and over and you can expect the same result. That's reality. Everybody needs to stop telling others what they should expect from themselves and their efforts. It would be more helpful to point out, to newbies, what it actually took to make all those results actually happen; the time, experience, dedication, and yes, money, than to just throw shade and say, "yeah, don't expect any of that to happen for you!" That's what these forums are for, to help, not just for sour graping others. There's my "heated undercurrent" lol

Yes, to all of that.

I report my findings as extensively as I do so that anybody who wants to can duplicate the results.

This post was about people upset when they break the UPS/FedEx seal, slap a scope on their new gun, and get mad that it won't shoot to their unrealistic expectations. It takes time and effort to make most guns shoot really good. And my "really good" goal is to average submoa @ 100 yards for a 35+ fpe gun.

 

[FL22]

I was going to stay out of this thread, because of the "heated undercurrent" nature of all of this, for sure. However, I just can't bring myself to not comment on the opinion stated by @FL22 up above, because it has been said so many times, by so many, that new people might think that it is the undisputed truth, and not just an opinion. And NO, I'm not picking on @FL22, for having a different opinion than mine, I'm just pointing out that in my opinion, I think that he, and others, who have talked about "unrealistic expectations" are actually wrong.

It is my opinion that there is nothing being done by anybody, that can't be matched by someone else, if they actaully really want to. To tell anyone that it is unrealistic for them to expect, or do, what someone else does right in front of them is rather insulting. No, it isn't easy, and they very well likely 'might' not want to put in the work, but if they want to make it happen, it will. Why do so many people not have any faith in other hobbiest to have the same amount of dedication to their pursuit as the guys they are watching on YouTube? Insanity is often joked about, doing the same thing wrong over and over and expecting a different result, but the reverse is true too, do the same thing correctly over and over and you can expect the same result. That's reality. Everybody needs to stop telling others what they should expect from themselves and their efforts. It would be more helpful to point out, to newbies, what it actually took to make all those results actually happen; the time, experience, dedication, and yes, money, than to just throw shade and say, "yeah, don't expect any of that to happen for you!" That's what these forums are for, to help, not just for sour graping others. There's my "heated undercurrent" lol

No heat Sir . Just speaking from my own personal experience as someone who’s had to come to understand the difference between the out of the box hype and reality. Me and you have had DMs regarding the necessity of opening up a brand new Airgun to inspect it regardless of price.

 

[Billm]

I think that you should reread my post. It in no way was it worded as an accusation towards you or anyone specific.

However I realize that this thread is carrying some heated undercurrent.

My comment is simply pointing out that in my opinion some industry compensated influencers add to the unrealistic expectations.

But I will say that your reaction to it is interesting, perhaps you should take a step back and look at the entire thread.

You are absolutely correct about what you are saying about the impact of YouTube influencers. Like you I’m not referring to the core of this thread or Franklinks post. The Barra 250z is the perfect example. There is not a single negative YouTube review of the rifle until recent months. Which is astonishing considering that Barra has publicly admitted hat there was a major quality control with their barrels, Picatinny rails and butt stock release. So widespread that they told me they were keeping my rifle because they could not find a tested rifle to replace it with. That is just one example. But, the flip side is that YouTubers also bring a lot of value to the airgun community.

It’s also correct that we shouldn’t expect every rifle to shoot sub-MOA out of the box. But there’s caveats with that too. If a rifle is advertised as a sub-MOA rifle and you’ve paid for a custom tune, that rifle should do as advertised right out of the box. Every product should also be delivered meeting or exceeding its advertised specifications. A consumer shouldn’t have to make any physical modifications to bring the rifle up to minimum advertised specifications.

If a YouTuber states that there 30fpe rifle is shooting at 40fpe, that’s on you to make the necessary mods or tuning to make it happen. If you want to make a Barra 250z a competitive 100yd benchrest gun, that’s on you. If you buy a new rifle of any price and it has a deep gouge in the rifling, that’s on the manufacturer. If a manufacturer ships rifles with a major defect, the rifles should be either returned or remedied by the dealer/manufacturer- that is the only way you will get some manufacturers to tighten up their QC. That last statement is a generalization and not aimed at any particular manufacturer.

In the case of Franklinks thread: I believe he is trying to post unbiased data as he states. Personally I’ve never met a human being that isn’t influenced on a daily basis by their subconscious biases. For most of us, every decision we make is shaped by our internal biases without us even knowing it.

I enjoy reading his thread and do so even though I don’t agree with all of his views. The discussions make it fun too. For me none of it is meant personal. That’s why I like this forum.

One thing about expectations: if a consumer should not expect a rifle to shoot well out of the box, then products like the Air Venturi Alpha should not sell well - it has no external adjustments. The Alpha has no hammer spring or regulator adjustment. The only way to tune the Alpha is by trying different pellets. Amazingly it shoots really well, straight out of the box. I’ve shot Norma, AEA, JSB, H&N and JTS pellets and H&N slugs and it shoots them all better than expected with no tuning.

This is where a forum like Hard Air Magazine really shines: two of my best PCP Airgun purchases were made by asking for recommendations here on this forum. Both my Ghost and Sonoran were purchased solely on the recommendations of members here. I’ve had some ups and downs with the Sonoran, but the final result is that it is a solid purchase. The Ghost speaks for itself, just a solid platform.

This is a earlier thread where we discussed some of the YouTuber reviews were discussed:

1100Z New Barra 250z Review

Nov 5, 2024

Here is a closer look at the New Barra 250z in .22 caliber. I have spent some good time with the gun in a variety of different shooting/hunting conditions and feel confident to pass on my honest opinion. This is a gun I've much enjoyed shooting and will continue to use it.. definitely not going back. Lol Hopefully this video will answer a few questions people have and showcase another lower cost option. Cheers

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• MountainSportAirguns
• Replies: 39
• Forum: Barra Airguns

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[Dairyboy]

When did Daystate become the new FX? Lol I feel like im missing alot of context but so be it. Im on the side of some people do get unrealistic expectations. When someone sees the South Africa boys videos shooting birds at 100yds plus in strong winds and hitting them every shot with slugs is 100% unrealistic. They don't talk about all the work it takes to get to that level and even then they do a disservice as we all know they are likely missing as much as they hit in the winds they are shooting in. But dont see that on video. I'll be honest I havent watched them in years because of all that so no idea if that still is the case.

Anyways it sounds like there have been cases of poor accuracy with Daystates im guessing? Im curious what the poor accuracy is. There are a ton of variables that can cause this. Is it really poor accuracy or is it shooting MOA? I've seen in the past people being pissed their gun shoots only MOA and not .17362729 MOA like so and so claimed to have shot a group once.

I was plagued by unrealistic expectations for years and I went through many guns chasing that sub moa all day gun i saw people on the forums talk about. Mine would do sub moa sometimes, moa some and then some 2moa. Must be the gun. Until going through so many I learned that the guns werent the issue. The people bragging on the forums were lol. Also pellets from lot to lot, checking my parallax on my scope being 100%, wind i couldn't detect myself but was different on target.

I quit posting cherry picked groups and only would post 5 5 shot groups on a target when getting new guns for people who were interested to get a real world case vs the cherry pickers. I see some doing that also now which i like as @Franklink does.

So while I can't comment as I have no idea the context with apparently the Daystates having issues, I can comment on the realistic expectations as I fell for that getting into this hobby. It does happen. And also there are some who simply just cant shoot to the ability of others so that is a thing also that some need to accept.

 

[Solo1]

From reading some of the posts in this thread i would like to give a short explanation of my current feelings on Daystate. In the past they made the top of the line the huntsman and revere are very good looking guns that shoot to a very high standard! Then i got 2 red wolves which everyone claimed were the cream of the crop. Both ended up going back one for a gcu which was replaced and was ok after that and one that couldn’t keep a 22 pellet on 8.5x11 paper at 100. When the ghost came out I immediately fell for the design and ordered a hp 177 for ft and bought a 25 for high power ft. Both have served me well but i could see the writing on the wall with Daystate as the qc was slipping. Then the black wolf, the price really turned me off. I thought it could be like the ghost because of its design but so far from most reports its not doing well. As far as expectations go yes mine were high but not because of anything else except for my experience with a as i thought excellent brand which im loosing faith in

 

[ctshooter]

I really don’t want to get involved with the heated part of this conversation as I have no bone to pick with anyone or anything in this thread.

I do agree that expecting a new rifle prob the box to do MOA at 100 yards after mounting a scope is a bit of a pipe dream. I’ve had guns come close - but as an experienced air gunner now I know every air gun I receive will require tuning via reg, valve, hammer spring at the least to ever shooting at an efficient and proper power level.

But - I think it should be realized that there will be bad barrels. And the Daystate (at least in the 2-4 year range) has dropped the ball on their barrels. The fact that @Franklink is testing a SubMOA barrel before the stock one is a bit telling. While he “expects” the stock barrel to perform that is speculation at this stage until proven. I received many bad (wish I had pictures of the bore scope) that were chewed and chipped to pieces. Machine chunks off the lands and such.

I’m not going to argue the point - I received many bad Daystate barrels that couldn’t keep projectiles on papers. My expectations were not unrealistic nor was my testing. I went through at least 10-15 different pellets and brands. Tested at all speeds. The barrels were just bad - simple as that.

I do think there is a problem with a gun that you need to start putting tp restrictions in place. But that’s not a Daystate thing. That’s just a moving toward a balanced valve on everything and the move towards huge power. I kinda miss just being able to buy a low power .12 30fpe rifle you can shoot in the backyard without having to retune it lower than its intended specs.

 

[Franklink]

The fact that @Franklink is testing a SubMOA barrel before the stock one is a bit telling.

Was simply excited to see how the SubMOAs would shoot, so started with them.

F

Blackwolf Post in thread 'Blackwolf and Sub-MOA Barrels Review'

Feb 10, 2026

As requested (demanded?) I guess I'm going to move to the OEM Blackwolf HiLite barrel.

I tinkered with it a bit late last night.

I was surprised to find that it's a 6 land and groove, versus the more typical-for-Daystate 5 grooves. And it is undeniably a polygonal rifled barrel. It's this type of polygonal rifling, subtle lands without any sharp edges.

The barrel is 28inches long. And it's choked. It does have the usual LW tight section at the breech end, but where it loosens up after that is still giving some...

• Franklink

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[Billm]

I don’t think there is as much of a heated undercurrent as everyone thinks, I’m pretty sure forums like this favor type A personalities lol. Nor do I think most airgunners on here expect a sub-MOA grouping rifle straight out of the box. I’ve been told that the major airgun retailers are experiencing some frustration with a high number of returns due to unrealistic expectations. That phenomena is more than likely influenced by the YouTuber/influencers as intended.

In my opinion retailers would find it beneficial to be more active on these forums. Post some tutorials. Help set the correct expectations, seek some back and forth communications with non-compensated users of their products. Then list these resources on a handout that is included inside the box of every airgun sold.

Stop relying on YouTube being the only source of information.

 

[Franklink]

I don’t think there is as much of a heated undercurrent as everyone thinks, I’m pretty sure forums like this favor type A personalities lol. Nor do I think most airgunners on here expect a sub-MOA grouping rifle straight out of the box. I’ve been told that the major airgun retailers are experiencing some frustration with a high number of returns due to unrealistic expectations. That phenomena is more than likely influenced by the YouTuber/influencers as intended.

In my opinion retailers would find it beneficial to be more active on these forums. Post some tutorials. Help set the correct expectations, seek some back and forth communications with non-compensated users of their products. Then list these resources on a handout that is included inside the box of every airgun sold.

Stop relying on YouTube being the only source of information.

I suspect there's also the "vocal minority" or the "false consensus effect" going on as well.

 

[Billm]

I suspect there's also the "vocal minority" or the "false consensus effect" going on as well.

I agree. I think we should all consider this a whipped dead horse or yote and move on to the next discussion, which I assume will be the outcome of your stock barrel results.

 

[FL22]

In my opinion retailers would find it beneficial to be more active on these forums. Help set the correct expectations, seek some back and forth communications with non-compensated users of their products

As far as an industry insider being a part of this community is concerned I give 10 out of 10 and a top HAMster award to @BenjeneerJohn

 

[Franklink]

....and move on to the next discussion, which I assume will be the outcome of your stock barrel results.

Oh I'm sure somebody will find something to get their panties in a wad about there too.

 

[Luis Leon]

• Peak Potential?

• Highest Potential?

The level of performance varies according to the task at hand. Expectations on how any PCP performs “out da box” depends on the end user. Casual backyard shooters, plinkers, pesters and hunters? May have different criteria than competition shooters. Who legitimately want the last ounce of accuracy, precision and peak potential from their PCPs. For myself? I am satisfied with what my PCPs do sub 100 yards, heck most of my sending is from 50 yards and in. But personally feel that if you pay over 2K for a PCP rifle, that it should be able to do 1/2” at 50 yards as received with quality pellets and good conditions. A big part of the expectations I feel is that a lot of folks have lost sight of the fact that airguns are short range tools. Lobbing out to 100 yards? Sure. 200, 300, 400? That is definitely out of the realm of reality for the majority of airgunners here. Either way @Franklink, a very good post.



P.S. I always inherently understood that the men and women consistently winning in competitions. Are putting in the extra work needed to get to their hard earned podiums.

 

[Billm]

As far as an industry insider being a part of this community is concerned I give 10 out of 10 and a top HAMster award to @BenjeneerJohn

Agreed, he has helped me and listens to input, even if he can’t produce a new marauder fast enough for @Pumacarl lol.

 

[Dairyboy]

• Peak Potential?

• Highest Potential?

The level of performance varies according to the task at hand. Expectations on how any PCP performs “out da box” depends on the end user. Casual backyard shooters, plinkers, pesters and hunters? May have different criteria than competition shooters. Who legitimately want the last ounce of accuracy, precision and peak potential from their PCPs. For myself? I am satisfied with what my PCPs do sub 100 yards, heck most of my sending is from 50 yards and in. But personally feel that if you pay over 2K for a PCP rifle, that it should be able to do 1/2” at 50 yards as received with quality pellets and good conditions. A big part of the expectations I feel is that a lot of folks have lost sight of the fact that airguns are short range tools. Lobbing out to 100 yards? Sure. 200, 300, 400? That is definitely out of the realm of reality for the majority of airgunners here. Either way @Franklink, a very good post.



P.S. I always inherently understood that the men and women consistently winning in competitions. Are putting in the extra work needed to get to their hard earned podiums.

100% we are pushing pellet guns way further than ever imagined. Definitely limitations with the diabolos we use also. dont get me wrong its fun to push pellets far but hard to expect a whole lot past 75yds without lots of practice. Then again im not a high power shooter. 33fpe for my strongest gun.

 

[BenjeneerJohn]

As far as an industry insider being a part of this community is concerned I give 10 out of 10 and a top HAMster award to @BenjeneerJohn

Agreed, he has helped me and listens to input, even if he can’t produce a new marauder fast enough for @Pumacarl lol.

Thanks guys! I try.

I want to get the new Marauder out the door as much as anyone!

One thing I want you all to remember is that production builds rifles. They are skilled assemblers that get paid to build quickly and accurately. They don't have the time to tune each rifle. So in my opinion, the rifle should come out of the box and shoot decently at 30 yards. It is up the skill of the customer to tune it to meet their expectations.

John

 

[Solo1]

Thanks guys! I try.

I want to get the new Marauder out the door as much as anyone!

One thing I want you all to remember is that production builds rifles. They are skilled assemblers that get paid to build quickly and accurately. They don't have the time to tune each rifle. So in my opinion, the rifle should come out of the box and shoot decently at 30 yards. It is up the skill of the customer to tune it to meet their expectations.

John

John how do you guys inspect barrels or choose barrels to be used in rifles may i ask?

 

[BenjeneerJohn]

John how do you guys inspect barrels or choose barrels to be used in rifles may i ask?

We test fire a few barrels at the start of the production run (and each day they are in production).

Then we test fire each action at the end of assembly. Only rifles that pass velocity and accuracy specs get serialized, stocked and shipped. If you buy a new PCP from us you will get a Megalink target printout in the box. This is the group that specific rifle shot to prove it meets our expectations.

John