Realistic Expectations

[Solo1]

We test fire a few barrels at the start of the production run (and each day they are in production).

Then we test fire each action at the end of assembly. Only rifles that pass velocity and accuracy specs get serialized, stocked and shipped. If you buy a new PCP from us you will get a Megalink target printout in the box. This is the group that specific rifle shot to prove it meets our expectations.

John

Thankyou!

 

[Ezana4CE]

...One thing I want you all to remember is that production builds rifles. They are skilled assemblers that get paid to build quickly and accurately. They don't have the time to tune each rifle. So in my opinion, the rifle should come out of the box and shoot decently at 30 yards. It is up the skill of the customer to tune it to meet their expectations.

John

If I'm paying $4000 for an airgun and it has machining and design issue, I'd probably be livid. Then again, that type of airgun is likely designed and marketed to some sort of high-level airgun competitor which is probably why I don't own one. As a hunter and leisure shooter, what is quoted in bold above is pretty similar to what I was thinking. It's pretty much what I expect out of the box with regulated PCPs, but at 25 yards. With or without a barrel cleaning, I expect to see decent groups at 25 yards with pellets from a PCP pellet rifle. After cleaning the barrel, groups should improve to what I would consider "good" to where it's not throwing flyers and most shots are touching. After tuning I expect to see similar groups at 50 yards. With an unregulated air rifle, ideally I'm expecting it to shoot consistently out to about 40-45 yards before having to make adjustments. But this is contingent upon having a rifle that has been well machined and assembled. If I want great groups, then this is where I would think of making several aftermarket purchases, modifications, and further adjustments.

On a high end airguns (let's say $1800 and up), I have a whole lot less tolerance for mistakes in design, machining, and assembly, especially after a thorough and fairly aggressive marketing campaign. Using customers as beta testers is a practice that I am not a fan of. I will take time to tune an air rifle. I'm not the guy who wants to test barrels or have to devise ways to stiffen a barrel because of a design flaw. I think that if I'm redesigning your airgun, I may as well make my own of at least make it a habit of building "Frankenguns". I don't want to get too deep into this because I'm probably one of the least mechanically inclined members around here. With that said, I don't appreciate having to remove burrs from transfer ports and barrels on new rifles when I paid good money for the airgun. I believe that I'm paying for quality when I chose to upgrade to higher end guns and that's usually due to how they are marketed. I should be able to clean the barrel, maybe adjust the trigger, focus on finding favorable projectiles, and balancing the hammer spring tension and regulator (if if is an airgun with a hammer).

In sum, if I cannot clean the bore, scope the rifle, air up, sight in, and shoot good groups at 25 yards, your gun sucks (to me). If it shoots decent at 25, but I have serious problems with groups falling apart out to 50 yard after spending a reasonable amount of time trying to tune it before asking for help, I'm going to be looking to see if others have posted similar complaints. I'm no pro and I'm not highly competitive. To me, good groups are consistent with how my shooting patterns print overall. Regardless of how tight my groups can get across platforms, there are patterns to my targets due to my habits. I have a good idea of how they look which is often why you may read me stating in posts "don't take my shooting as a representation of what this platform is capable of. I'm not a great shot." Although there are some qualifiers, this is my take. @Franklink, is this unrealistic to you?

 

[Ezana4CE]

We test fire a few barrels at the start of the production run (and each day they are in production).

Then we test fire each action at the end of assembly. Only rifles that pass velocity and accuracy specs get serialized, stocked and shipped. If you buy a new PCP from us you will get a Megalink target printout in the box. This is the group that specific rifle shot to prove it meets our expectations.

John

@BenjeneerJohn Are you saying this is what comes with new Crosman/Benjamin airguns purchased directly from the Crosman/Benjamin sites? When did Crosman/Benjamin begin this practice?

 

[Franklink]

If I'm paying $4000 for an airgun and it has machining and design issue, I'd probably be livid. Then again, that type of airgun is likely designed and marketed to some sort of high-level airgun competitor which is probably why I don't own one. As a hunter and leisure shooter, what is quoted in bold above is pretty similar to what I was thinking. It's pretty much what I expect out of the box with regulated PCPs, but at 25 yards. With or without a barrel cleaning, I expect to see decent groups at 25 yards with pellets from a PCP pellet rifle. After cleaning the barrel, groups should improve to what I would consider "good" to where it's not throwing flyers and most shots are touching. After tuning I expect to see similar groups at 50 yards. With an unregulated air rifle, ideally I'm expecting it to shoot consistently out to about 40-45 yards before having to make adjustments. But this is contingent upon having a rifle that has been well machined and assembled. If I want great groups, then this is where I would think of making several aftermarket purchases, modifications, and further adjustments.

On a high end airguns (let's say $1800 and up), I have a whole lot less tolerance for mistakes in design, machining, and assembly, especially after a thorough and fairly aggressive marketing campaign. Using customers as beta testers is a practice that I am not a fan of. I will take time to tune an air rifle. I'm not the guy who wants to test barrels or have to devise ways to stiffen a barrel because of a design flaw. I think that if I'm redesigning your airgun, I may as well make my own of at least make it a habit of building "Frankenguns". I don't want to get too deep into this because I'm probably one of the least mechanically inclined members around here. With that said, I don't appreciate having to remove burrs from transfer ports and barrels on new rifles when I paid good money for the airgun. I believe that I'm paying for quality when I chose to upgrade to higher end guns and that's usually due to how they are marketed. I should be able to clean the barrel, maybe adjust the trigger, focus on finding favorable projectiles, and balancing the hammer spring tension and regulator (if if is an airgun with a hammer).

In sum, if I cannot clean the bore, scope the rifle, air up, sight in, and shoot good groups at 25 yards, your gun sucks (to me). If it shoots decent at 25, but I have serious problems with groups falling apart out to 50 yard after spending a reasonable amount of time trying to tune it before asking for help, I'm going to be looking to see if others have posted similar complaints. I'm no pro and I'm not highly competitive. To me, good groups are consistent with how my shooting patterns print overall. Regardless of how tight my groups can get across platforms, there are patterns to my targets due to my habits. I have a good idea of how they look which is often why you may read me stating in posts "don't take my shooting as a representation of what this platform is capable of. I'm not a great shot." Although there are some qualifiers, this is my take. @Franklink, is this unrealistic to you?

All that is quite reasonable and likely to play out to your expectations, even at guns much more on the budget side of the equation.

But it doesn't work out well when someone is trying to shoot 20 grain pellets from a gun designed and set up to shoot 40 grain slugs. Or something equally mismatched.

 

[Ezana4CE]

All that is quite reasonable, as long as you're not trying to shoot 20 grain pellets from a gun designed and set up to shoot 40 grain slugs. Or something equally mismatched.

@Franklink Nah man. I do not think I'm that particular. I just want to kill what I'm shooting at. Once I find 1-3 projectiles that a rifle likes, I think I'm usually content. I don't think I often reach an air rifle's peak potential, because I'm usually not pushing them to perform out to their maximum effective distances. Are the expectations that you speak of usually those of new airgunners or competitive shooters?

 

[Franklink]

@Franklink Nah man. I do not think I'm that particular. I just want to kill what I'm shooting at. Once I find 1-3 projectiles that a rifle likes, I think I'm usually content. I don't think I often reach an air rifle's peak potential, because I'm usually not pushing them to perform out to their maximum effective distances. Are the expectations that you speak of usually those of new airgunners or competitive shooters?

It sounds like you're less critical of a rifles accuracy than I would guess is typical. Most people seem to want every last bit of accuracy that's on the table, and usually they want more that's not on the table.

 

[Franklink]

It sounds like you're less critical of a rifles accuracy than I would guess is typical. Most people seem to want every last bit of accuracy that's on the table, and usually they want more that's not on the table.

@Ezana4CE , I want to clarify that I didn't mean that as disparaging. A gun can be a fine hunting/pesting tool, doing all that's asked of it (making clean kills on a regular basis) but also not have the accuracy required for competition or just plain chasing of tiny groups.

 

[BenjeneerJohn]

@BenjeneerJohn Are you saying this is what comes with new Crosman/Benjamin airguns purchased directly from the Crosman/Benjamin sites? When did Crosman/Benjamin begin this practice?

We have been shipping targets in the box since 2017 or 2018. We moved to electronic target system targets in 2022ish. Production puts the target in the box when the rifle is packed. It doesn't matter where you buy the rifle from, it will come with a target.

Customer expectations are hard to deal with. Some people will buy a .22 with a max of 60fpe but want it to shoot 15.89s at 880 right out of the box. Others will buy that same rifle and expect to shoot 25.4s at 60fpe. This is where we as manufactures need to make a decision and we always leave someone disappointed. I would rather have a rifle capable of 60fpe come out of the box shooting 15.89s at 880 with the ability to turn up the energy if I wanted. That is my personal preference.

I am not trying to defend anyone just provide some insight on the challenges manufactures face.
John

 

[Ezana4CE]

We have been shipping targets in the box since 2017 or 2018. We moved to electronic target system targets in 2022ish. Production puts the target in the box when the rifle is packed. It doesn't matter where you buy the rifle from, it will come with a target…
John

@BenjeneerJohn That’s strange. I don’t recall ever receiving a shot target with a new Benjamin/Crossman airgun. I own 5 and 3 were purchased new. I still have a new Bulldog in the box that I’ve never shot. I’ll have to check in there and see. The last one I purchased was my M357 that I hunt with and post about.

To be clear, are you saying that a target that has been shot prior to shipping (for testing) is included in the box with new Benjamin models up until around 2022? All of mine have been purchased after 2018. The un-shot rifle still in the box is an original .357 Bulldog, so I’ve probably had it for at least 3-4 years. I’d have to look at my paperwork.

 

[Ezana4CE]

@Ezana4CE , I want to clarify that I didn't mean that as disparaging. A gun can be a fine hunting/pesting tool, doing all that's asked of it (making clean kills on a regular basis) but also not have the accuracy required for competition or just plain chasing of tiny groups.

@Franklink I don’t take it as disparaging. I’m just not that picky. If I can see that my shots are touching on paper, a lot of the time that works for me. On good days when I can shoot hole-in-hole off of a tripod, I’m happy knowing my airgun is capable of achieving that. It gives me something to work towards.

In the field there are variable conditions that I almost constantly face causing movement, so it is very difficult to replicate conditions used to produce optimal results at a bench or table. The foremost condition is flint to me my shooting position which will mostly be kneeling or standing braced against something.

The issue for me is when I pay $1800 +, I’m expecting more than the average hunting airgun is going to do or provide. Examples would be a semi-automatic function, upgraded valves, more robust materials (I.e. aluminum, stainless steel, or wood over plastic), a more versatile or accurate barrel. At $4000 I better just need to clean and tune the airgun. And it should meet all of the stated specs with what comes with and in the airgun with proper adjustments and projectiles. That’s pretty much my point.

 

[Billm]

• Peak Potential?
• Highest Potential?

The level of performance varies according to the task at hand. Expectations on how any PCP performs “out da box” depends on the end user. Casual backyard shooters, plinkers, pesters and hunters? May have different criteria than competition shooters. Who legitimately want the last ounce of accuracy, precision and peak potential from their PCPs. For myself? I am satisfied with what my PCPs do sub 100 yards, heck most of my sending is from 50 yards and in. But personally feel that if you pay over 2K for a PCP rifle, that it should be able to do 1/2” at 50 yards as received with quality pellets and good conditions. A big part of the expectations I feel is that a lot of folks have lost sight of the fact that airguns are short range tools. Lobbing out to 100 yards? Sure. 200, 300, 400? That is definitely out of the realm of reality for the majority of airgunners here. Either way @Franklink, a very good post.



P.S. I always inherently understood that the men and women consistently winning in competitions. Are putting in the extra work needed to get to their hard earned podiums.

Thanks guys! I try.

I want to get the new Marauder out the door as much as anyone!

One thing I want you all to remember is that production builds rifles. They are skilled assemblers that get paid to build quickly and accurately. They don't have the time to tune each rifle. So in my opinion, the rifle should come out of the box and shoot decently at 30 yards. It is up the skill of the customer to tune it to meet their expectations.

John

I agree 100% with the added caveat that it must be “capable” of being tuned to the advertised expectations. No amount of tuning will overcome the laws of physics or sloppy manufacturing.

 

[Billm]

All that is quite reasonable and likely to play out to your expectations, even at guns much more on the budget side of the equation.

But it doesn't work out well when someone is trying to shoot 20 grain pellets from a gun designed and set up to shoot 40 grain slugs. Or something equally mismatched.

All that is quite reasonable and likely to play out to your expectations, even at guns much more on the budget side of the equation.

But it doesn't work out well when someone is trying to shoot 20 grain pellets from a gun designed and set up to shoot 40 grain slugs. Or something equally mismatched.

All that is quite reasonable and likely to play out to your expectations, even at guns much more on the budget side of the equation.

But it doesn't work out well when someone is trying to shoot 20 grain pellets from a gun designed and set up to shoot 40 grain slugs. Or something equally mismatched.

Except that it is claimed that the Blackwolf is a do-all multi-caliber rifle from .177 to .30. AOA just dropped the video demonstrating .066 MOA groups at 50yds using JTS .22 22.07gr pellets with a stock rifle. The implication is that shooting .22 22gr pellets accurately is within the expected performance envelope. I used .25” outside to outside groups using, .217” as the caliber = .033” at 50yds, less than .066 MOA at 100yds. That result doesn’t match what people are reporting. But, I’m pretty sure, even if my math is wrong that would it make it one of the most accurate air rifles around. I’m assuming the guess at the group size was off, but still impressive.

My core point: is that you are criticizing people for stating that a $4000 rifle shouldn’t need a modification to shoot well, and you’re stating that it isn’t designed to do that. Daystate and AOA are stating that it is designed to shoot lighter .22s well. Why else would they demonstrate the accuracy of the BW with .22 22 gr pellets? From a bag, I might add.

 

[pan60]

Except that it is claimed that the Blackwolf is a do-all multi-caliber rifle from .177 to .30. AOA just dropped the video demonstrating .066 MOA groups at 50yds using JTS .22 22.07gr pellets with a stock rifle. The implication is that shooting .22 22gr pellets accurately is within the expected performance envelope. I used .25” outside to outside groups using, .217” as the caliber = .033” at 50yds, less than .066 MOA at 100yds. That result doesn’t match what people are reporting. But, I’m pretty sure, even if my math is wrong that would it make it one of the most accurate air rifles around. I’m assuming the guess at the group size was off, but still impressive.

My core point: is that you are criticizing people for stating that a $4000 rifle shouldn’t need a modification to shoot well, and you’re stating that it isn’t designed to do that. Daystate and AOA are stating that it is designed to shoot lighter .22s well. Why else would they demonstrate the accuracy of the BW with .22 22 gr pellets?



Except that it is claimed that the Blackwolf is a do-all multi-caliber rifle from .177 to .30. AOA just dropped the video demonstrating .066 MOA groups at 50yds using JTS .22 22.07gr pellets with a stock rifle. The implication is that shooting .22 22gr pellets accurately is within the expected performance envelope. I used .25” outside to outside groups using, .217” as the caliber = .033” at 50yds, less than .066 MOA at 100yds. That result doesn’t match what people are reporting. But, I’m pretty sure, even if my math is wrong that would it make it one of the most accurate air rifles around. I’m assuming the guess at the group size was off, but still impressive.

My core point: is that you are criticizing people for stating that a $4000 rifle shouldn’t need a modification to shoot well, and you’re stating that it isn’t designed to do that. Daystate and AOA are stating that it is designed to shoot lighter .22s well. Why else would they demonstrate the accuracy of the BW with .22 22 gr pellets? From a bag, I might add.
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I would love to see what it does at a 100 yards? I havent watched the video just yet.

I still say there should be some leval of reasonable expectations I have no desire to out line what that would be but if I am buyinging a three or four thousand dollar gun I persanly dont expect to work on it to shoot MOA I do think if you want to get more then you can go into barrel options, replacement polish so on. its one think to squeeze all the performance you can out of something to get you that extra edge its another to get something that doesnt preform.
I dont not consider tuning as machanicing or moving I think running is just part of the game.
replacing a barrel goes beyond tuning and falling into I want more.

 

[Franklink]

Didn't watch the whole video, but I fast forwarded to the screen grab you sent.

By the vídeo, sure doesnt look like Jared is using a 28inch barrel. So I assume it's not the HiLITe like I was sent.
For comparison, the Red Wolf in .22 with the short barrel that I was sent a few years ago maxed out about 20fpe less than the Red Wolf HP or what HiLite or whatever they were calling it at the time. It was something like 40fpe for the Red Wolf Standard, and 60fpe for the longer barreled, higher powered version. What I'm getting at is that the particular BW that Jared is using in that video is the correct configuration for shooting 22 grain pellets. This is all the "buy the correct configuration for what you want to do" part of the original post here.

Jared is also Jared. He does well at EBR most years.

Also, the most vocal of Blackwolf detractors on the forums (including here) don't own a Blackwolf in any configuration. This isn't only about the BW, but also their un-met expectations with other expensive airguns.

 

[Solo1]

Jared stated the 17” 22 barrel to push 33 gr pellets to 58 fpe and 16 gr on min to i think it was 24 fpe

 

[Franklink]

Jared stated the 17” 22 barrel to push 33 gr pellets to 58 fpe and 16 gr on min to i think it was 24 fpe

So about 2/3 the energy of the long-barreled BW configuration that they sent me.
That would be comparable to how they spaced out the max power of the short versus long barreled configurations of the Red Wolf.

 

[Solo1]

I also noticed in 1 of the shots on specs they said 17” - 177&22
23” - 25&30

 

[Franklink]

I'll remind you all that even the .22 HiLite was exceptional as a .177 when I had @cavedweller s 19 inch barrel. @Arzrover machined an appropriately sized transfer port into that barrel and it shot as good as any 19fpe .177 that I've had come through my hands.

This is the variables portion of my original post.

Either buy the correct configuration for what you want to do, or expect to change some variables to get there. This isnt rocket science, nor anything new for an airgun. Something about that purchase price of the BW makes people see red, and expect it to butter their toast and put creamer in their coffee.

 

[Solo1]

So about 2/3 the energy of the long-barreled BW configuration that they sent me.
That would be comparable to how they spaced out the max power of the short versus long barreled configurations of the Red Wolf.

Yes but the short barrel red wolf in 177 didn’t shoot over 30 fpe !

 

[Franklink]

Yes but the short barrel red wolf in 177 didn’t shoot over 30 fpe !

Okay. I'm not seeing your point.

The short barreled .22 Red Wolf maxed out around 43-44fpe if I remember correctly. And that was the second gen of the electronics board. The earlier short barreled Red Wolf maxed out around 37-38fpe I believe. While their longer barreled version was most of 60fpe, in .22.

Again. Buy what you want. Don't be mad when you bought something that doesn't match what you want to do with it. And if you did buy something that doesn't match what you want, or you needs changed, than be ready to change some variables to get there.