"Defensive Target Discussion"

[Moose]

"Really, we need to take the political correctness out of the issue, and then we will have true training." I believe this is an excellent way to start this thread.

For far too long we have not had our voices heard correctly. We allowed some to commander the language of our lives, our sports and our hobbies. I'm going to present some facts as examples.

I do not use any of my weapons for assaulting anyone. I own defensive weapons. Some want to ban assault weapons, but I don't own any assault weapons. Those that use weapons for assaulting anyone in our society are criminals. Arrest and punish them, not the tools they use.

My targets should represent images of what I perceive as assault images. Whether they be paper, steel or 3D should be my choice. I'm training to defend my position with those targets. No other opinions should matter to me. If anyone is offended, it is their problem. They can turn and walk away. If a business owner is offended, he can ask me to leave. I would rather know where he stands on issues of the individual's rights versus the politically correct position that he may hide behind. I will gladly take my business elsewhere.

Many of the quality arms we use are representative of firearms in use both today and from our past. They are designed to do a specific job and do it well. Some are designed to be used for hunting, competition and entertainment. Some are designed to be used for defense. Most pistol calibers are designed for defensive use and should be used in training situations with targets that represent a threat. Even the models give us good training and trigger time.

I'm sure I will have more to say later, but I have to check on that hammer in the basement. It may turn into an assault weapon if I don't secure it first.

 

[Luis Leon]

"Really, we need to take the political correctness out of the issue, and then we will have true training." I believe this is an excellent way to start this thread.

For far too long we have not had our voices heard correctly. We allowed some to commander the language of our lives, our sports and our hobbies. I'm going to present some facts as examples.

I do not use any of my weapons for assaulting anyone. I own defensive weapons. Some want to ban assault weapons, but I don't own any assault weapons. Those that use weapons for assaulting anyone in our society are criminals. Arrest and punish them, not the tools they use.

My targets should represent images of what I perceive as assault images. Whether they be paper, steel or 3D should be my choice. I'm training to defend my position with those targets. No other opinions should matter to me. If anyone is offended, it is their problem. They can turn and walk away. If a business owner is offended, he can ask me to leave. I would rather know where he stands on issues of the individual's rights versus the politically correct position that he may hide behind. I will gladly take my business elsewhere.

Many of the quality arms we use are representative of firearms in use both today and from our past. They are designed to do a specific job and do it well. Some are designed to be used for hunting, competition and entertainment. Some are designed to be used for defense. Most pistol calibers are designed for defensive use and should be used in training situations with targets that represent a threat. Even the models give us good training and trigger time.

I'm sure I will have more to say later, but I have to check on that hammer in the basement. It may turn into an assault weapon if I don't secure it first.

That the shooting skills carry over, and are enhanced and honed by the sheer volume of shooting that airgunning allows is undeniable. But why bring that kind “defensive use” perspective here? Airguns are an escape from our current absurd world for the majority of us… Why is “everything is a threat”? We airgun for the “fun” of it… Boys with toys… Your post belongs elsewhere…

 

[pan60]

in a setting where i had to defend myself i would use what ever i had at my disposal but, my air guns, are as mentioned, are my toys.
they are tools in the sense that they are used for pesting but for my thats where it stays.

 

[PasadenaMike]

we’re just grown up children shooting BB guns here don’t know nothing about nothing.

 

[Alan]

A long as we keep mollycoddling offenders, we will still need weapons of defense!

 

[Luis Leon]

To the OP in my ratting sessions I might think of them as enemy combatants as they are so sly and shifty… Counter Sniper Ops if you will, but other than that my airguns are for fun.

 

[Pumacarl]

OK, I won't suger coat it: usually (not always) the people who want to talk about that stuff here come off as annoying and fanatical. Most people are at these websites for an escape. Or to learn about the recreational use of an airgun. That's it. It's too bad, because airguns are great training tools, it's just the personalities don't jive, and all people end up arguing about(not talking) is different rights being lost, and power, instead of accuracy. A whole different side agenda (very much NOT recreational) takes over, like a cancer, and the site isn't fun anymore. I think airsoft websites cover it anyway, that's their purview, if they don't, start a website that does and advertise it on here.

On an interesting sIidenote to that, I saw, on garandthumb's YouTube channel where they were talking about the number one ranked airsoft pistol shooter in the world, some Japanese guy who had never shot a real firearm, was invited to some top championship firearm match in the US as a joke, and he actually finished in second place shooting the firearm version of what he used. That shows you where muscle-memory and training will get you. It took him a second to get used to recoil, and then it was off to the races.

 

[RetLE303]

"Really, we need to take the political correctness out of the issue, and then we will have true training." I believe this is an excellent way to start this thread.

For far too long we have not had our voices heard correctly. We allowed some to commander the language of our lives, our sports and our hobbies. I'm going to present some facts as examples.

I do not use any of my weapons for assaulting anyone. I own defensive weapons. Some want to ban assault weapons, but I don't own any assault weapons. Those that use weapons for assaulting anyone in our society are criminals. Arrest and punish them, not the tools they use.

My targets should represent images of what I perceive as assault images. Whether they be paper, steel or 3D should be my choice. I'm training to defend my position with those targets. No other opinions should matter to me. If anyone is offended, it is their problem. They can turn and walk away. If a business owner is offended, he can ask me to leave. I would rather know where he stands on issues of the individual's rights versus the politically correct position that he may hide behind. I will gladly take my business elsewhere.

Many of the quality arms we use are representative of firearms in use both today and from our past. They are designed to do a specific job and do it well. Some are designed to be used for hunting, competition and entertainment. Some are designed to be used for defense. Most pistol calibers are designed for defensive use and should be used in training situations with targets that represent a threat. Even the models give us good training and trigger time.

I'm sure I will have more to say later, but I have to check on that hammer in the basement. It may turn into an assault weapon if I don't secure it first.

Well said.

I agree with all points.

I do like the term defensive weapons vs assualt. When I taught the public about do's and don'ts in firearm self-defense I explained how verbage is critically important. While it may lean toward PC, it still was crucial to how a situation is later investigated.

The target issue has been one that seems to have not evolved yet. I refer to Col Grossman's book "On Killing" about how targets have changed througout history. Waaaay back to revolutionary/civil war to modern day training targets have changed to be more realistic. The most intersting part was around the time of the vietnam war, the military changed its target training to a silhouette instead of bullseyes. The end result was an increase in hits (killing). Sorry, if it's not PC but its true.

I firmly believe that using realistic targets (regardless of what your shooting at) promotes realistic results. You can shoot at bullseyes all day. Thats great, glad you can stay on a bullseye and great for competition scoring. But if you want to practice for defense, using an airgun is an excelent way to build up basic marksmanship fundamentals. That can also translate to your other defensive firearm skills as well. I would bet, just about everyone that has an airgun, likely has other firearms. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think airguns are terrific tool for a variety of things from hunting, competition to skill development for defense.

Back in the late 90's I visitted a range that denied me putting up face/head taregts when I did some qualification practice. They were standard FBI qualification targets. They said it wasn't permitted by thier rules. Even though they knew the purpose I was practicing for, they stuck to thier rules. I never visitted them again. But I had that happen at another range in recent past. Maybe it was just a range safety having a bad day, but eventually I just apologized and took my targets down. I since had used them on other occasions without issue. But it took a few conversations and some higher ups to acknolwedge that it was okay for me to use them. Maybe it was just for me, since they knew my job, but what about others who might want to practice for self defense? The range has adapted, and they are very pro-LE and 2A. SO maybe it was just a back-then issue, but from this discussion, maybe its still an issue ?

I can understand that the image of someone practicing to shoot at face targets looks bad. If I didnt explain who I was and what I was qualifing/practicing for, other shooters on the range had some pretty strange looks.



My background is both military and LE.

Stay safe !

 

[RetLE303]

That the shooting skills carry over, and are enhanced and honed by the sheer volume of shooting that airgunning allows is undeniable. But why bring that kind “defensive use” perspective here? Airguns are an escape from our current absurd world for the majority of us… Why is “everything is a threat”? We airgun for the “fun” of it… Boys with toys… Your post belongs elsewhere…

Your correct, it definately translates over to honing one skills !

I believe that airgunning is the hidden secret that new/young shooters can learn on. In most places, they arent restricted. (I say most, because it was in my previous state I resided in). One of many reasons I dont reside there anymore.

You certainly can airgun for fun as it is !! But it is versitle tool and can be used for many other skills/hunting as well.

I wish that escaping the absurd world were true as well, but we all know it is temporary relief. We still have to go back to the real world as messed up as it is eventually. But its still a break ! I have more time now to practice and I definelty love being a part of the airgun community. Thanks!

 

[RetLE303]

in a setting where i had to defend myself i would use what ever i had at my disposal but, my air guns, are as mentioned, are my toys.
they are tools in the sense that they are used for pesting but for my thats where it stays.

Could having an airgun with a higher caliber be used defensivly ? If so, would using a realistic target be appropriate?

I think that using any airgun builds on your fundamentals of shooting in general. They can translate over to your defensive ones. Sight alignment, trigger control, grip, breathing and stance.

 

[RetLE303]

I have never heard mollycoddling before.

I have to remeber that one.

Our country was founded in firearms. I think today all firearms are a necessary tool to be used for good not evil.

As Moose said, defensive. I think the best way to build defensive skills with airguns is to promote realistic targets.

Anyone and anyone can certainly shoot at circles and bullseyes. But if they are using airguns as a tool to translate for defensive practice, should they use realsitic targets?

 

[RetLE303]

OK, I won't suger coat it: usually (not always) the people who want to talk about that stuff here come off as annoying and fanatical. Most people are at these websites for an escape. Or to learn about the recreational use of an airgun. That's it. It's too bad, because airguns are great training tools, it's just the personalities don't jive, and all people end up arguing about(not talking) is different rights being lost, and power, instead of accuracy. A whole different side agenda (very much NOT recreational) takes over, like a cancer, and the site isn't fun anymore. I think airsoft websites cover it anyway, that's their purview, if they don't, start a website that does and advertise it on here.

On an interesting sIidenote to that, I saw, on garandthumb's YouTube channel where they were talking about the number one ranked airsoft pistol shooter in the world, some Japanese guy who had never shot a real firearm, was invited to some top championship firearm match in the US as a joke, and he actually finished in second place shooting the firearm version of what he used. That shows you where muscle-memory and training will get you. It took him a second to get used to recoil, and then it was off to the races.

By no means, was this thread an attempt to be fanatical or annoying. My personality has been changed maily because of my career/experiences. But I do keep that in check in my discussions. Airguning is a great tool for sure. Anyone that wants to gain more knowledge can certainly take away from anything they wish in a discussion.

This thread was just a discussion regarding using realistic targets for defensive. You said it correctly that the skills you gain in airgunning translate over to defensive-type firearms. Someone that never picked up a firearm (except an airgunner) was able to perform at near expert level in competition.

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Found that older video, but I think it still applies.

The question though for this is, if the point is to translate to defensive firearms why not practice with realistic targets?

 

[Moose]

Excellent Airsoft video! I really enjoyed the brief history of target use. I'm going to look that book up. I have said often that air guns are the way to get the kids back involved with the shooting sports. I am presently dealing with my club and their regulations that do not allow steel targets, human paper targets or other re-active targets. They are fine with 3D archery targets. I'll be challenging these issues at our August meeting. RetLE303 posted up some excellent support positions for this discussion and he got it done faster than I could. Thank you very much. Until tomorrow, have a good one.

 

[RetLE303]

Excellent Airsoft video! I really enjoyed the brief history of target use. I'm going to look that book up. I have said often that air guns are the way to get the kids back involved with the shooting sports. I am presently dealing with my club and their regulations that do not allow steel targets, human paper targets or other re-active targets. They are fine with 3D archery targets. I'll be challenging these issues at our August meeting. RetLE303 posted up some excellent support positions for this discussion and he got it done faster than I could. Thank you very much. Until tomorrow, have a good one.

When it comes to steel targets, I can sort of relate to potential injury issues. Regardless of the distance sometimes, steel just causes fragmented splashback. I personally love the sound of ringing steel, but as a longer distance kind of guy, I prefer to have it 100 yards away. But I also love pistol plate drills as well. I can understand liabilities with ranges and injuries though.

Paper targets with human parts though is important for training. While it may look bad, if your not prepared to use the tool defensively against another, then I guess the range might as well just say practicing with firearms is just for target/competition/hunting. A message I dont think many ranges will ever say.

"On killing" is one of the most eye opening books you can read. Col. Grossman has another book "On Combat". His books are required reading for the Marine Corp today. I have been to many of his seminars. You can research his background on line and here is a link to the book. On Killing - Grossman on Truth

He used to have a website called "Killology" however I believe even that word scares too many people away today.

When did society become so afraid of certain words much less offended by paper targets?

 

[Linehauler73]

I want to thank this site for allowing a thread like this. Kudos as not all sites would have it even for a second.

 

[mikesxpress]

My wife's giant Kitchen Aide mixer is an assault weapon. So is this 1/2" breaker bar I'm using to get the wheel lug nuts of this JD tractor.