Hateful McNasty
Grand HAMster
I don't get why there not more in .20 offered .. you see hiys talk up buying and wanting .20 all the time so it's not like folks are going yuck .20 and low interest .lol
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Condor Condor Review: A case report in how "utilitarian" can be a positive
- Thread starter Franklink
- Start date
- Latest activity Latest activity:
- Replies 107
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fderry
HAM Specialist
My Tallon SS only had the 45-gram hammer weight installed from the factory. I had a 19-gram weight/spacer in my parts bin that I initially installed as a spacer but decided to remove it for today's testing.
Today's configuration - factory Talon SS, 18in 16mm .20 caliber barrel & TT 6in moderator. Tethered with external regulator set at 1800psi. Started at a hammer wheel setting of 11-1. Ran 5 shot groups at hammer wheel settings of 11-1 down to a setting of 4-1 in 1 full revolution down between tests. Using 15.89gr pellets
Results indicated I could use a little more hammer spring/hammer weight for a consistent ~38fpe at 1800psi. Options at this point are try the 19-gram weight/spacer or my aftermarket hammer weight (70-grams) for a consistent 38-40fpe tune with stock tophat valving. I do have the Ring Loc valve kit so I can also play with valving.
My initial goal was to set this Talon SS up as a 20fpe rifle. To do this it looks like I will have to reduce the tophat valving a lot! But I am getting into seeing what it will do at a higher fpe. I will probably eventually set it up at 20fpe or less but will continue testing at an upper level just to see what it can do. Today test data attached.
Today's configuration - factory Talon SS, 18in 16mm .20 caliber barrel & TT 6in moderator. Tethered with external regulator set at 1800psi. Started at a hammer wheel setting of 11-1. Ran 5 shot groups at hammer wheel settings of 11-1 down to a setting of 4-1 in 1 full revolution down between tests. Using 15.89gr pellets
Results indicated I could use a little more hammer spring/hammer weight for a consistent ~38fpe at 1800psi. Options at this point are try the 19-gram weight/spacer or my aftermarket hammer weight (70-grams) for a consistent 38-40fpe tune with stock tophat valving. I do have the Ring Loc valve kit so I can also play with valving.
My initial goal was to set this Talon SS up as a 20fpe rifle. To do this it looks like I will have to reduce the tophat valving a lot! But I am getting into seeing what it will do at a higher fpe. I will probably eventually set it up at 20fpe or less but will continue testing at an upper level just to see what it can do. Today test data attached.
- Original poster
- #63
Got some oomph now, maybe even a bit too much for the 15.89, on the higher end of what you were getting.
- Original poster
- #64
As a huge fan of the .20, Im quite happy with what's available.
The JSB .20/13.73 is absolutely amazing @ 810fps for just shy of 20fpe. Field target match winner right there.
The JSB .20/15.89 around 910-920 is my all around Hunter when I'm wanting to be safe. It's accurate out to 250 yards. Yes that sounds incredible but I've shot them that far and they're stable and fly true, just gotra account for the wind. I use the .20/15.89 the same way many 30fpe .22 users do the 18.13. Except the BC is much better with the .20/15.89 than the .22/18.13.
And the NSA .20/18.9 is as good as slugs get. Pdogs out to 220 yards, and not just once or twice, witnessed by various friends. And they're CHEAP, as far as slugs go, and they don't burn through the air.
I'd be very sad if any of those three quit being manufactured.
While happy with what is available, I wouldn't turn my nose up at a heavier slug and a heavier pellet. The only concern is length of projectile relative to the standard LW twist rate. Which every caliber, there's a point where projectile length requires a faster twist to properly stabilize them in flight. Nothing commercially available hits that limit though, which means there's an opportunity there. Smaller cross section and longer length are both factors that increase a BC. Sure would love to see a .20/21-24grain JSB...or whatever weight would put it right under the length limit that could still be stabilized by the standard 1:17.7" twist rate Lothar barrels in all three of my .20 PCPs.
(Hence why I experiment with .22/18.13 and .22/25.4 sized down to .20, theoretically, there's magic to be had there).
Hateful McNasty
Grand HAMster
No way you could .. poor selection ( like air gun depot has 5 to choose .). Sure as heck ain't running in to a store local to grab some .. definitely not convenient in any way . I don't shoot to be a inconvenience 
.
It's ashame it's that way too..
.It's ashame it's that way too..
- Original poster
- #66
No way you could .. poor selection ( like air gun depot has 5 to choose .). Sure as heck ain't running in to a store local to grab some .. definitely not convenient in any way . I don't shoot to be a inconvenience
I haven't bought airgun ammo at a "local store" in 6+ years. I have much higher accuracy requirements than comes from anything sold at any local to me store.
I shoot because it's fun to hit what I'm aiming at, that requires quality ammo.
Danman
Grand HAMster
Last edited:
Lol ain't nobody doing that with an 18.13 grain pellet to 250Y consistently! I'm stoked when I get a 60-80Y kill with my 32FPE S510 with that pellet (it's all time fav ammo). Tons of energy remaining up to 100Y (have not tested beyond that as I'm still rocking a 3x9 Scope so it's pretty limiting) So @Franklink are all the Condor barrels .177 to .25 than a 1:17ish twist rate then? With the heavier .20 ammo you and @fderry are shooting I think you have quite the setups! I personally believe the .177 and .22 have too much muscle as shipped for pellets but the .25 (up to 105+- fpe
) Is crazy to me! But yeah without decent accuracy it means nothing. I just want my .22 Ghost to shoot 23 to 34gr slugs....that's all I ask 
Keep up the good work and thanks for sharing 
- Original poster
- #68
Lol ain't nobody doing that with an 18.13 grain pellet to 250Y consistently! I'm stoked when I get a 60-80Y kill with my 32FPE S510 with that pellet (it's all time fav ammo). Tons of energy remaining up to 100Y (have not tested beyond that as I'm still rocking a 3x9 Scope so it's pretty limiting) So @Franklink are all the Condor barrels .177 to .25 than a 1:17ish twist rate then!? With the heavier .20 ammo you and @fderry are shooting I think you have quite the setups! I personallybelieve the .177 and .22 have too much muscle as shipped for pellets but the .25 (up to 105+- fpe
The standard LW twist rate is a 1:17.7 I can't imagine AirForce is paying LW for anything but a basic blank. I'll measure the twist rate the next time I have the barrel out.
My money is on it being the standard twist rate.
- Original poster
- #69
Made and tried some of the .20/25.4s (resized .22 Monster RD). The Condor attained 52.57fpe with a .20, but accuracy was abysmal.
This is the .20/25.4 testing…..
Started with the 0.166 transfer port and 4-4 on the wheel and 2100psi. Shots were 964.3, 952, 948, 935, etc. Rapidly descending shots like this are a dead indicator for too much hammer spring for the tp. So backed it down to 1-1 and refilled to 2100 psi, shots were 951.2, error, 934.6, 927.3, 924.
Swapped to the 0.145 transfer port and 3-3 on the wheel, filled to 2050 and got: 924.3, 917.2, 908, 903.8, 904, 897.5, 893.3, etc. This was probably the best “tune.” And where I saw a bit of accuracy.
Still with the 0.145 and now at 1900, cranked up the wheel to 8-8 and saw 894.2, 887.7, so the power limiting factor here was the 0.145, as more hammer spring wasn’t giving me faster fps.
Decided to see what I could max it out as and went to the 0.232 transfer port, 1-1 on the hammer spring, and filled to 1950fps. First AND ONLY shot was 955.6, and the gun did a partial valve dump. Pressure from that one shot went from 1950 to 1100fps. It was violent. It took me a couple seconds to realize I still have a face. I will not be revisiting that 0.232 tp with the .20, NO. NO. NO.
Was shooting at paper at 100 yards and some of them would go where they should, but some of them wouldn’t even hit my 8x11 sheet of paper. I could see where they were hitting though (dust flying) and it sometimes was FEET away. This might be a situation where the .20/25.4s are simply too long to be reliably stabilized by the twist rate of the barrel. I measured each and every .20/25.4 and they were all within a grain or two, all measured 0.201 on the head, and 0.207 on the skirt and were the same enough length to not be a problem there. From the perspective of measurable attributes, they were as consistent as anything commercially manufactured. But accuracy was a no-go.
This is the .20/25.4 testing…..
Started with the 0.166 transfer port and 4-4 on the wheel and 2100psi. Shots were 964.3, 952, 948, 935, etc. Rapidly descending shots like this are a dead indicator for too much hammer spring for the tp. So backed it down to 1-1 and refilled to 2100 psi, shots were 951.2, error, 934.6, 927.3, 924.
Swapped to the 0.145 transfer port and 3-3 on the wheel, filled to 2050 and got: 924.3, 917.2, 908, 903.8, 904, 897.5, 893.3, etc. This was probably the best “tune.” And where I saw a bit of accuracy.
Still with the 0.145 and now at 1900, cranked up the wheel to 8-8 and saw 894.2, 887.7, so the power limiting factor here was the 0.145, as more hammer spring wasn’t giving me faster fps.
Decided to see what I could max it out as and went to the 0.232 transfer port, 1-1 on the hammer spring, and filled to 1950fps. First AND ONLY shot was 955.6, and the gun did a partial valve dump. Pressure from that one shot went from 1950 to 1100fps. It was violent. It took me a couple seconds to realize I still have a face. I will not be revisiting that 0.232 tp with the .20, NO. NO. NO.
Was shooting at paper at 100 yards and some of them would go where they should, but some of them wouldn’t even hit my 8x11 sheet of paper. I could see where they were hitting though (dust flying) and it sometimes was FEET away. This might be a situation where the .20/25.4s are simply too long to be reliably stabilized by the twist rate of the barrel. I measured each and every .20/25.4 and they were all within a grain or two, all measured 0.201 on the head, and 0.207 on the skirt and were the same enough length to not be a problem there. From the perspective of measurable attributes, they were as consistent as anything commercially manufactured. But accuracy was a no-go.
- Original poster
- #70
So after that failed attempt I went back to the 0.123 transfer port, and 1-1 on the wheel and filled it up to 2100psi, with the goal of shooting A BUNCH of shots over the chrono for a full shot string. Using the JSB .20/15.89 here.
Got it all charted on a spread sheet and this is what we've got.....
(Pressures are somewhat approximate b/c of the 200psi graduations on the manometer. 100 increments are quite doable, half of the 200, but more accurate than that is somewhat nebulous).
All three graphs come from the same 105 shot string, the difference between the three is that I graphed out progressively smaller segments of the shot string.
I'm not saying the Condor has a shot count of 105. This was just to determine ideal start and end pressures for a fill, to produce consistent fps.
There's a bit of fps inconsistency on the top half, likely a artifact of the partial valve lock from being overfilled for that particular hammer spring/transfer port/projectile. Much greater consistency on the bottom half, and even beyond, lower than the ideal fill pressure. FPS is very reliably dropping just a couple fps for every shot, from the peak produced by about 1700psi, all the way down to where I stopped at 1000fps.
But overall, it's behaving exactly like we expect to see from a properly set up unregulated airgun. FPS rises as the ideal fill pressure is met, somewhat plateaus during that ideal pressure window, and then starts to come back down as the pressure in the bottle diminishes. The key to reliable accuracy from an unregulated gun is filling to the correct starting pressure, and to stop shooting at the correct ending pressure. "Correct" is all dependent upon how much consistency we're after.
I think I've decided to fill to 1900 (after the cool down it should get me around 1850 as a starting pressure). and refill at 1400 if just shooting for fun, or even for hunting. If I'm really serious about consistency, refilling at 1500psi would keep me within about 30fps for the entire shot string, otherwise 50fps is plenty consistent for what I plan for the gun. And 50 shots per fill is pretty sweet, especially considering how low of a pressure we're talking. Get lots more use out of my air supply.
As for accuracy. All 105 shots were taken at paper at 100 yards. It was fun to pick out a previous pellet hole and see how close I could get. Lots of times I put it on top of the previous hole, and most of the time could put it within an inch or so of the desired impact point. So, we're talking prairie dog head sized accuracy at 100 yards, on tap and ready to go.
For now I think I'm settled on the .20/15.89 averaging about 30fpe. Really enjoyable to shoot with these settings. Very quiet and very pleasant.
As for the scope I'm not quite decided there. I've got a gunless PARD right now, that is night vision and recording. That PARD maxes out at 11.2x and I haven't used it much becuase of that. I personally prefer more magnification....but I'm considering putting the PARD on the Condor. It'd make for a convenient way to get some pdog hunting footage....although with the distance I'm often killing them, I'm not sure that 11.2x is going to do it any justice.
Anyway, all fun stuff.
Got it all charted on a spread sheet and this is what we've got.....
(Pressures are somewhat approximate b/c of the 200psi graduations on the manometer. 100 increments are quite doable, half of the 200, but more accurate than that is somewhat nebulous).
All three graphs come from the same 105 shot string, the difference between the three is that I graphed out progressively smaller segments of the shot string.
I'm not saying the Condor has a shot count of 105. This was just to determine ideal start and end pressures for a fill, to produce consistent fps.
There's a bit of fps inconsistency on the top half, likely a artifact of the partial valve lock from being overfilled for that particular hammer spring/transfer port/projectile. Much greater consistency on the bottom half, and even beyond, lower than the ideal fill pressure. FPS is very reliably dropping just a couple fps for every shot, from the peak produced by about 1700psi, all the way down to where I stopped at 1000fps.
But overall, it's behaving exactly like we expect to see from a properly set up unregulated airgun. FPS rises as the ideal fill pressure is met, somewhat plateaus during that ideal pressure window, and then starts to come back down as the pressure in the bottle diminishes. The key to reliable accuracy from an unregulated gun is filling to the correct starting pressure, and to stop shooting at the correct ending pressure. "Correct" is all dependent upon how much consistency we're after.
I think I've decided to fill to 1900 (after the cool down it should get me around 1850 as a starting pressure). and refill at 1400 if just shooting for fun, or even for hunting. If I'm really serious about consistency, refilling at 1500psi would keep me within about 30fps for the entire shot string, otherwise 50fps is plenty consistent for what I plan for the gun. And 50 shots per fill is pretty sweet, especially considering how low of a pressure we're talking. Get lots more use out of my air supply.
As for accuracy. All 105 shots were taken at paper at 100 yards. It was fun to pick out a previous pellet hole and see how close I could get. Lots of times I put it on top of the previous hole, and most of the time could put it within an inch or so of the desired impact point. So, we're talking prairie dog head sized accuracy at 100 yards, on tap and ready to go.
For now I think I'm settled on the .20/15.89 averaging about 30fpe. Really enjoyable to shoot with these settings. Very quiet and very pleasant.
As for the scope I'm not quite decided there. I've got a gunless PARD right now, that is night vision and recording. That PARD maxes out at 11.2x and I haven't used it much becuase of that. I personally prefer more magnification....but I'm considering putting the PARD on the Condor. It'd make for a convenient way to get some pdog hunting footage....although with the distance I'm often killing them, I'm not sure that 11.2x is going to do it any justice.
Anyway, all fun stuff.
This is all great stuff. Thanks for sharing!
Danman
Grand HAMster
@Franklink: I will NOT be trying the 0.232 tip with the .20 barrel! Tries it anyways.....
Thats what we do, am I right, test everything at least once? There is a short video from up north airgunner on valve dump from a big bore Airforce....it was VIOLENT and he wasn't trying to get it to happen either. So you can change the T.P. ring lock size without depresurizing it? Wow! So if you take that bottle off all the HPA goes with the bottle.. unlike say the Ghost where u still have to degas the rifle portion?- Original poster
- #73
@Franklink: I will NOT be trying the 0.232 tip with the .20 barrel! Tries it anyways.....
Lol, had to try it at least. The thought that provoked this was, "maybe these .20/25.4s just need to go faster?!?!"
I don't recommend inducing full or partial valve dump.
Yes, the transfer ports are swappable without degassing or even removing the bottle. Most easily accessible transfer ports I've seen in any airgun design-perhaps the neatest feature of the entire gun.
And the bottle can be removed without degassing, just like a Ghost bottle.
One of the reasons the gun is capable of such great power is the in-line valve system. There's no right angles or convoluted air passages for air to get from valve to projectile. When that trigger is pulled, it's a straight push to the back of the pellet, at whatever pressure is in the bottle.
And as such, no pellet probes or oring grooves in the barrel. In that regard the barrel is machined somewhat like a USFT or Thomas, two other designs that don't require a transfer port to be cut into the side of the barrel at 90 degrees.
Danman
Grand HAMster
Stumble on some video, dude had a custom AF gun and somehow got this buttstock on it! Looked super cool, and fairly functional, it is from a paintball gun he was saying.
- Original poster
- #75
Hard to tell proportions... Does it slip over the bottle?
Danman
Grand HAMster
It did on his gun but he admitted it was a smaller than stock tank and it took some customization to get it on.
- Original poster
- #77
I've mostly shot this gun at 100 yards, just plinking and having fun. And that's really not the distance to be assessing accuracy.....wind effects muddy the waters substantially at that distance, especially with pellets.
So this evening I had a trap out at 30 yards for practicing with a different gun for an upcoming sub20fpe field target match, and decided to shoot a ten shot group from the Condor to see what it can do. Just shot this one group so it's not the cherry picked best of a bunch of groups...
30 yards, .20/15.89 @ 930ish fps. And, as always, there was wind...I'd guess 10-15mph.
10 shot group, and just a bit under 1/2", center to center. It's not centered b/c I just held dead center for all ten and looks like I need to adjust the turrets a couple clicks, but not too shabby for any price point, and even more impressive when one considers the price point.
So this evening I had a trap out at 30 yards for practicing with a different gun for an upcoming sub20fpe field target match, and decided to shoot a ten shot group from the Condor to see what it can do. Just shot this one group so it's not the cherry picked best of a bunch of groups...
30 yards, .20/15.89 @ 930ish fps. And, as always, there was wind...I'd guess 10-15mph.
10 shot group, and just a bit under 1/2", center to center. It's not centered b/c I just held dead center for all ten and looks like I need to adjust the turrets a couple clicks, but not too shabby for any price point, and even more impressive when one considers the price point.
Danman
Grand HAMster
Nice, right up there with regulated guns! If you ever feel like doing some 50/60Y groups with it feel free to post them up as well
....that's my usual max shooting distance @home anyways.
Florida_Man
Master HAMster
Just great info you provide @Franklink
I wish I had the time you put in posting, let alone all the shooting and tuning.
I wish I had the time you put in posting, let alone all the shooting and tuning.
- Original poster
- #80
Last edited:
Nice, right up there with regulated guns! If you ever feel like doing some 50/60Y groups with it feel free to post them up as well
An unregulated gun can be just as accurate an unregulated one. My USFT is unregulated and is my most decorated field target gun. Multiple perfect matches with it. The key to unregulated is to figure out your fill pressures, and as long as shots taken are within that pressure window, ACCURACY is there.
I'll get some 50-55 yard groups too, I'm curious as well.
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