Blackwolf Blackwolf and Sub-MOA Barrels Review

[pan60]

Hello Ham
I can shed some light on this issue. Early Sub Moa barrels have been honed on a vertical machine that is a very sophisticated and expensive piece of equipment. However the tooling and logic system is not ideal for small calibers ie 22 cal. So the machine struggles to understand what it is doing. In my layman’s terms it works faster that it thinks. The engineers at Sub Moa decided to install a new horizontal machine that is world renowned for its ability to hone a perfect bore. The new machine is magic. The results are impressive. The hone is where the quality of the bore is made. Since Sub Moa drills , reams , hones, rifles , laps and profile finishes each barrel qc is checked after each stage with air gauges and bore scopes.

The early hone indeed left less than perfect results. However performance was still good and many podiums have been achieved. Yes hand lapping can almost always improve performance. The new lapping machine gives as close to a lead lapping finish possible with a automated system. It is quite remarkable really. For ninety five percent of the users machine lapping is more than acceptable. HOWEVER. airgun forums are where the other five percent find home. For those shooters that desire the best performance extra TLC always helps.

Sub Moa mission is to produce the best airgun barrels ever made. They are constantly improving and experimenting with different bore dimensions, twist rate, etc

I hope this helps.

Rob

PM sent

 

[Billm]

Hello Ham
I can shed some light on this issue. Early Sub Moa barrels have been honed on a vertical machine that is a very sophisticated and expensive piece of equipment. However the tooling and logic system is not ideal for small calibers ie 22 cal. So the machine struggles to understand what it is doing. In my layman’s terms it works faster that it thinks. The engineers at Sub Moa decided to install a new horizontal machine that is world renowned for its ability to hone a perfect bore. The new machine is magic. The results are impressive. The hone is where the quality of the bore is made. Since Sub Moa drills , reams , hones, rifles , laps and profile finishes each barrel qc is checked after each stage with air gauges and bore scopes.

The early hone indeed left less than perfect results. However performance was still good and many podiums have been achieved. Yes hand lapping can almost always improve performance. The new lapping machine gives as close to a lead lapping finish possible with a automated system. It is quite remarkable really. For ninety five percent of the users machine lapping is more than acceptable. HOWEVER. airgun forums are where the other five percent find home. For those shooters that desire the best performance extra TLC always helps.

Sub Moa mission is to produce the best airgun barrels ever made. They are constantly improving and experimenting with different bore dimensions, twist rate, etc

I hope this

when I say magnification I am referring to I click on the pick it opens and it is not .22 diamidertor it is 8 inch diameter so that is a magnification factor of ( roughly ) 36 that is a massive magnification factor.
I am in no way defending anything but I am stating that is a tooling mark from a cutting tool being pulled out of a cut. it is uniformly spaced and as I mention when a cut is made a tool is under load when the tool is pulled back that load is gone and the tool will have some degree of spring back and leave marks
on a external cut you can pull the tool away but on a boring operation like this it may not be doable
this is something that I would expect would clean up with lapping or polishing but again I dont have it in my hand so I can not truly speak to it.

The image is of the barrel, post polishing.

 

[AOA ROB]

Hello Ham

Yes the vertical hone created issue. Thus the reason to invest in a new Sunnin machine.

Rob.

 

[Franklink]

I'm still at it guys, collecting data to share the next time I'm stuck in front of a computer.

Have recently worked more with the JSB Lights, as well as some testing of the old boxed Crosman Premiers (14.3grain). And even just now got done shooting the ole reliable JSB 18.13 @ 100 yards.

 

[Franklink]

I took the BW with me to the field target match this past weekend. And when putting it in the case, realized the foam has more cut-outs than the similar case/foam for the Ghost.

The biggest difference is that there are cut-outs to allow for a larger bottle, or even an under-rail. The slots for pellet tins are also pre-cut for large or small tins. Seems like more space in this case for the front objective of the scope versus what's available in tne Ghost case, although that's just from memory.

And as previously questioned, yes, the SubMOA barrel fits in the case without removing the barrel.

 

[Solo1]

Now if they would turn it around so the stock was on the bottom and the scope on top when carrying.

 

[Franklink]

Now if they would turn it around so the stock was on the bottom and the scope on top when carrying.

Yes! And if we're being really picky, also flipped so the gun doesn't rest on the side wheel when the case is laid down.

 

[Franklink]

Late night fiddling in the gun room...

With Rudy's 19.5" .177 barrel + a thread adaptor + 110 0db moderator, title length is 41.75" and MUCH lighter.
(Thread adaptor to get from the Daystate/BRK standard 1x14 muzzle threads to 1/2x20 moderator threads).


Measurement from butt stock to end of 480cc bottle is 32."
Could technically put a 14-15" barrel on it to get a fairly compact gun, of course losing some fpe with the reduction in barrel length. But 32" OAL starts to put us into CONVENIENT length.

As a part two to the above... I recently mocked up some shroud options for @cavedweller s 19.5" .177 barrel.

This is with a Taipan Veteran Long shroud, which is essentially the same dimensions as a factory Ghost shroud.

Conclusion: there's enough room (just barely) between shroud and bottle to go this route, if desired. Another idea would be to source hardware for a Ghost shroud, but track down a longer carbon fiber tube to cover all but about 1.75-2" of barrel right in front of the breech.

 

[Danman]

Seems like more space in this case for the front objective of the scope versus what's available in tne Ghost case, although that's just from memory.

Yup, your right, pic of my Ghosts case with oe foam, i just trimmed it for custom buttpad & bipod....
@Franklink would the L.W. 28in barrel, installed fit in the B.W. case? Im still kinda peeved the Ghost with 28in slug barrel won't. I will probably get another case for it entirely and put a different gun in the Ghosts case or something.
Its doable but would be quite a job to get the foam cut out, flipped 180 and reglue/trim it back in. I imagine they do it this way for esthetics when you open the case, but yeah id rather it not resting on my Helix's (super tall) turret either!

**Edit** I see the SubMoa with mod is same length as the L.W.

 

[pfddi]

@AOA ROB - I have to correct you on the honing machine. It's "Sunnen" and it's in Saint Louis, Mo. My father spent 20 years there as a mechanical engineer.

 

[Pumacarl]

Now if they would turn it around so the stock was on the bottom and the scope on top when carrying.

I couldn't agree more. Everyone does scope down for wow factor opening the case, like as if that matters.

 

[Solo1]

I couldn't agree more. Everyone does scope down for wow factor opening the case, like as if that matters.

With all the people yelling about poi change then they put it in a case so the weight of the gun is hanging on over the barrel and the scope is under the gun so if you dropped theirs no foam under the scope to damp the shock. I don’t understand why more people don’t get that.

 

[Pumacarl]

With all the people yelling about poi change then they put it in a case so the weight of the gun is hanging on over the barrel and the scope is under the gun so if you dropped theirs no foam under the scope to damp the shock. I don’t understand why more people don’t get that.

I understand that just fine. What I don't get is people not putting a hand cut-out to easily lift their gun out of the case.
You just have to design your own.

Shameless example.

 

[Solo1]

I understand that just fine. What I don't get is people not putting a hand cut-out to easily lift their gun out of the case.
You just have to design your own.
View attachment 17263
Shameless example.

Thats how mine look

 

[Franklink]

I'm going to try to summarize testing from about the last week. Based on total count on my chronograph, I'm approaching 1000 shots through the Blackwolf. And that's just too much to share all the holes on paper.


Still have only shot from the 1:22 SubMOA barrel.

Blue hammer spring on MIN + reg @ 95 bar = 930-940 with JSB 20.83 Lights
Blue hammer spring + reg @ 95 bar = max of 830fps with Grands (regardless of the hammer spring tension wheel)
Blue hammer spring + reg @ 95 bar = max of 870 with MRDs (regardless of the hammer spring tension wheel)
ie, need a higher reg pressure than 95 bar for the 25.4 and 28.5 grain JSB .22 pellets

I had high hopes for the JSB Lights, based on how they shoot at 50 yards. But for whatever reason, accuracy falls apart at 100 yards with these pellets from this barrel. 100 yard EBR cards are in the 200-215 range with the Lights. And that includes some late night (no wind) cards. This one is on the better end of the spectrum for the Lights from the 1:22 barrel.

And this is with a fairly consistent tune, similar to what was shared earlier. JSB .22/20.83, with tune described above.


I've also tried the LIghts at various speeds, up to as fast as 1010. They didn't get any better at different speeds.



Boxed Crosman Premiers
Based on a handful of people telling me these 1:22 barrels like the JTS 22grain pellets, I decided to try some of the old boxed Crosman Premiers (14.3grains). They're similar to the JTS in that they're rock hard "lead" and that they can generally be shot faster than typical for their weight. I tried the CPs from 880-1070fps and they were good out to 100 yards, but not great. Generally they'd fall into the "no" category from me for accuracy. It took the white spring to get the CPs under 1100 fps at a reg pressure of 95 bar.


JSB .22/18.13
To me this pellet is the quintessential .22 pellet. Almost all .22 PCPs that I've tried have liked it, if the gun can be slowed down to produce 880-920fps with them. So, I shot a bunch of 18.1s from the Blackwolf, just to "see."
The 18.1s shot the best 100 yard EBR score from the BW yet, a 219. Which isn't great, but respectable for a pellet with such a low BC. These 5x5 groups @ 100 yard average out to just over 1.5moa, and that's 25 consecutive shots. And for those familiar with the EBR scoring format, only 1-2 shots were solidl 7s. There are a couple that likely plug up to an 8, but all the rest were 8s or better. The 8 ring is two inches in diameter.

Extreme spreads were a bit wide with the 18.1s also, 890-910fps in my notes. These midweight .22 pellets are where I think the Blackwolf could likely benefit from a spacer inside the plenum. I suspect we'd see tighter ES with that trick.

Generally the Blackwolf at these roughly 35-40fpe power levels is just a joy to shoot. Hardly any recoil, lots and lots of shots per fill, nice and quiet. Overall, very enjoyable trigger time.

In this first 1000ish shots with the 1:22 barrel I've concluded that at about 175-200 shots, I better start getting ready to pull the barrel and clean it well. The last couple cleanings haven't shown as much lead on the patches as I got from the heavy slugs with earlier testing, but to get the best accuracy, the barrel REALLY prefers to be quite clean.

From here I'll move on to seriously assess accuracy from some configurations with the 1:22 barrel and the JSB MRDs and the Grands. I have some JTS 25.4s, and some of the JTS 21.53 pellets that I also might try to run through it, but the focus will be on the JSB. I've tried various pellets from this 1:22 barrel with the reg at a high 170 bar, and at a low 95 bar, but haven't done much earnest testing with it in the mid ranges. So, MRDs and Grands at reg pressures in the 110-140 bar range is next. After that, will move on to one of the other barrels.

 

[Solo1]

I'm going to try to summarize testing from about the last week. Based on total count on my chronograph, I'm approaching 1000 shots through the Blackwolf. And that's just too much to share all the holes on paper.


Still have only shot from the 1:22 SubMOA barrel.

Blue hammer spring on MIN + reg @ 95 bar = 930-940 with JSB 20.83 Lights
Blue hammer spring + reg @ 95 bar = max of 830fps with Grands (regardless of the hammer spring tension wheel)
Blue hammer spring + reg @ 95 bar = max of 870 with MRDs (regardless of the hammer spring tension wheel)
ie, need a higher reg pressure than 95 bar for the 25.4 and 28.5 grain JSB .22 pellets

I had high hopes for the JSB Lights, based on how they shoot at 50 yards. But for whatever reason, accuracy falls apart at 100 yards with these pellets from this barrel. 100 yard EBR cards are in the 200-215 range with the Lights. And that includes some late night (no wind) cards. This one is on the better end of the spectrum for the Lights from the 1:22 barrel.

And this is with a fairly consistent tune, similar to what was shared earlier. JSB .22/20.83, with tune described above.


I've also tried the LIghts at various speeds, up to as fast as 1010. They didn't get any better at different speeds.



Boxed Crosman Premiers
Based on a handful of people telling me these 1:22 barrels like the JTS 22grain pellets, I decided to try some of the old boxed Crosman Premiers (14.3grains). They're similar to the JTS in that they're rock hard "lead" and that they can generally be shot faster than typical for their weight. I tried the CPs from 880-1070fps and they were good out to 100 yards, but not great. Generally they'd fall into the "no" category from me for accuracy. It took the white spring to get the CPs under 1100 fps at a reg pressure of 95 bar.


JSB .22/18.13
To me this pellet is the quintessential .22 pellet. Almost all .22 PCPs that I've tried have them, if the gun can be slowed down to produce 880-920fps with them. So, I shot a bunch of 18.1s from the Blackwolf, just to "see."
The 18.1s shot the best 100 yard EBR score from the BW yet, a 219. Which isn't great, but respectable for a pellet with such a low BC. These 5x5 groups @ 100 yard average out to just over 1.5moa, and that's 25 consecutive shots. And for those familiar with the EBR scoring format, only 1-2 shots were solidl 7s. There are a couple that likely plug up to an 8, but all the rest were 8s or better. The 8 ring is two inches in diameter.

Extreme spreads were a bit wide with the 18.1s also, 890-910fps in my notes. These midweight .22 pellets are where I think the Blackwolf could likely benefit from a spacer inside the plenum. I suspect we'd see tighter ES with that trick.

Generally the Blackwolf at these roughly 35-40fpe power levels is just a joy to shoot. Hardly any recoil, lots and lots of shots per fill, nice and quiet. Overall, very enjoyable trigger time.

In this first 1000ish shots with the 1:22 barrel I've concluded that at about 175-200 shots, I better start getting ready to pull the barrel and clean it well. The last couple cleanings haven't shown as much lead on the patches as I got from the heavy slugs with earlier testing, but to get the best accuracy, the barrel REALLY prefers to be quite clean.

From here I'll move on to seriously assess accuracy from some configurations with the 1:22 barrel and the JSB MRDs and the Grands. I have some JTS 25.4s, and some of the JTS 21.53 pellets that I also might try to run through it, but the focus will be on the JSB. I've tried various pellets from this 1:22 barrel with the reg at a high 170 bar, and at a low 95 bar, but haven't done much earnest testing with it in the mid ranges. So, MRDs and Grands at reg pressures in the 110-140 bar range is next. After that, will move on to one of the other barrels.

From all ive read so far the Blackwolf seems to be almost too powerful for its own good. Kind of an odd duck. Perhaps cutting down on plenum size is a good idea?

 

[Franklink]

From all ive read so far the Blackwolf seems to be almost too powerful for its own good. Kind of an odd duck. Perhaps cutting down on plenum size is a good idea?

Everyone is going to have a different idea of what too powerful is. My comments are trending that way because of my preferences. Somebody chasing EBR glory with heavy .30 pellets, or someone wanting to shoot heavy .22 Altaros slugs cuz all the cool kids are doing it....those two examples of different types of shooters than me are gonna be super pleased to have all the oomph they can get. Which is a lot with the Blackwolf.

And there are a lot of average powered airguns in the market. There aren't a lot of high power ones. I've compared the power potential of the BW to the raw power of the Air Force line... The massive difference in price between those two examples of high power airguns matches the massive difference in refinement levels.

 

[Solo1]

Everyone is going to have a different idea of what too powerful is. My comments are trending that way because of my preferences. Somebody chasing EBR glory with heavy .30 pellets, or someone wanting to shoot heavy .22 Altaros slugs cuz all the cool kids are doing it....those two examples of different types of shooters than me are gonna be super pleased to have all the oomph they can get. Which is a lot with the Blackwolf.

And there are a lot of average powered airguns in the market. There aren't a lot of high power ones. I've compared the power potential of the BW to the raw power of the Air Force line... The massive difference in price between those two examples of high power airguns matches the massive difference in refinement levels.

What you say is true but a lot of guys as ive read on agn are like you and having trouble finding a tune for 18-25 gr that works well and as you have mentioned the plenum might be the difference that and the size of the ports. I know i can get the ghost to very close to 100 fpe in 30 and to 72 fpe in 22 with 700 mm barrel and 40 gr slugs but isn’t the ghost plenum only half the size of the blackwolf or there about? I don’t really know how big it is. Do you think you could have something printed to insert in the plenum to help with lighter rounds?

 

[Dogowski]

I had my BlackWolf TAC .177 HP with the VoluMax push the 22 gr Zan slugs at 1003 FPS = 49.2 FPE

That's some great power Soren! 49.2 fpe in 177 is awesome.

 

[Franklink]

What you say is true but a lot of guys as ive read on agn are like you and having trouble finding a tune for 18-25 gr that works well and as you have mentioned the plenum might be the difference that and the size of the ports. I know i can get the ghost to very close to 100 fpe in 30 and to 72 fpe in 22 with 700 mm barrel and 40 gr slugs but isn’t the ghost plenum only half the size of the blackwolf or there about? I don’t really know how big it is. Do you think you could have something printed to insert in the plenum to help with lighter rounds?

Before I sought out some 3d printing, I'd just stuff a piece of PVC pipe in the plenum to take up space. I might experiment with this for a sub20fpe tune when AOA gets me that .177 probe. With the port size on that .177 barrel, I think keeping it under 20fpe won't be a problem, but some reduction in plenum size is likely to help with consistency.