What'cha doing air gun related today?

[Cantona256]

Shall we say i was insistent in my queries.

And to one of your points, "lemons". That was what started me down the path of comparison. I started seeing fewer and fewer complaints (ignoring hatsan) about more than a handful of the low end rifles. To the level I see with the mid and high end guns. SPA/Snowpeak and AEA from China and several of the prominent Turkish manufacturers have all upped their game. Look at the M60B/Zelos and find any substantive complaints.

The rest of your points are quite valid but do they equate to $2,500? Competition as an exception always. The majority of shooters (me) are incapable of using a Black Wolf, Ghost or Leopard any where close to their potential. There is a substantial number of people that are buying a status symbol, though they will never admit that. We see that everywhere Cars, Stereos virtually any consumer product.

BTW: Gauntlet is where this all originates

My main point being the quality differentiation is decreasing but the price differentiation is increasing.

Seeing it elsewhere too. Scopes from CVLife, Westhunter and Spina are getting pretty damn impressive.

And the Condor just keeps rolling along...

To be fair I think the Gauntlet made the wheels in a lot of people’s heads start spinning.

 

[Billm]

Personally, I don’t care what others think about my choice in airguns. I’m not spending their money. Do, I think $1000 plus air rifles, are expensive in relation to their actual cost to manufacture - absolutely. Are they overpriced: probably not, when you consider the market. The PCP marketplace is tiny. A manufacturer has to charge a price that allows them to stay in business. It’s basically the age old “economy of scale” in reverse: small market = lower demand = higher prices. I’m not sure anyone is buying an airgun as a “status symbol’, most of us are lone wolf shooters and my wife is the only one that sees my airguns and she’s indifferent to my choices lol. Life would be a lot more boring, if we all wore the same clothes, drove the same car and lived in identical homes and shot the same airguns. As far as most people not shooting well enough to justify their choice in air rifles: shooting skills are mainly limited by one’s time and effort put into honing their skills. If you work hard, learn the correct form and practice, the only thing that can hold you back is a rifle that can’t perform to your level.

 

[Jaabaa]

Interesting discussion! I'd like to comment on a couple of points raised above...

I agree that improved materials and engineering are part of the price difference between a $1K and $2.5K air rifle. But there are more, including gun-to-gun consistency (AKA quality control), warranty and support, together with brand presence and even just looks. Each of us will have our own specific opinions of the value of these things.

Are these things necessary? Maybe not. At least not unless you are unfortunate enough to receive a "lemon". Can they make some of us feel better about our purchase? They sure can, hence the vast sales of high-end products of all types - not just airguns - with premium brand names. Again, we all make our own calls and $3K is a lot of money for most of us.

With regard to the "Karma EQ will outshoot my Blackwolf" comment, or similar. It's important to remember that a huge number of YouTube reviews are "bought". The video review business (again for all types of products, not just airguns) is based on reviewers being paid - usually before the video is published. If you were being paid to run a review for a certain product, would you say it was junk? Really?

In this respect, I would like to stress that Hard Air Magazine does not charge for reviews. Sure we have advertisers - you can all see who they are - and of course we give them priority in scheduling our limited review time. But HAM reviews themselves are not "bought". We say exactly what we want and prove it with as much data as possible.

And finally @SpindleB , please note that you have not got into trouble with the moderators here for asking a reasonable question in a reasonable manner!

That's important to me.

 

[SpindleB]

I want to say I may not need a 3000.00 pellet gun and truth be know I dont need a pellet gun at I could toss rocks with a rubber band but I want a pellet gun and I want something nice and well made.
I put y hand on a couple sub 1000.00 guns and I decided they weren't for me so I save and saved and I bought a AAA EVOL and by the time it was scope and and sent out it was well north of 3k and when I let my buddy see it next to his sub 1000.00 gun wich he felt was good enough he also saved and got a AAA EVOL and so did another buddy of ours.
the bill and quality of the upper end gun is far batter then the entry leval guns and yes the lats 20% cost a lot more the the first 80% and the last 10% is studied costly and every 1% after that is ridiculously expensive and no everyone wants to pay for that but
I do.
and I do not compete I mostly hunt a pest
if I could do it over, I would spend a dime on anything less the the upper end guns. or compressors for me its a waste of money but thats me.
I would venture to say it was ludicrous to waste money on entry and and mid level guns but I will refrain.
point is I and other are prime example of folks that want the better quality and we dont compete.

: )

Have you shot a Zelos, Throne 2 or Challenger 2 LB?

I own an HM1000x LRT (yay lowball bid on gunbroker) so I do understand the differences. But I had the pleasure of shooting the Challenger and it actually, in my hands, out shoots the RAW. At 50 yards consistent hole in hole. Was amazing.

I own a Throne 2, the RAW is more accurate at my 45 yards but not enough to be of serious note. 1/4" vs 1/2".

I have a Niksan Ozark-TW that is as comfortable as any air rifle I have shouldered. New $380. Right up there with the Throne 2, 1/2" groups at 45 yards. And very nice looking (after a lot of sanding and linseed) Turkish Walnut. I may have won the infamous barrel lottery on that one.

If i would leave my Condor alone it is in that class too. When set to JTS 25.39 .25 at around 900FPS it is 1/2" groups. But it is so easy to modify, and I am an engineer, it requires weekly modification. Never were the most ergonomic of guns and my Condor and Talons probably less so when I get done adding regulators, plenums and big bottles.

 

[SpindleB]

If you work hard, learn the correct form and practice, the only thing that can hold you back is a rifle that can’t perform to your level.

Kind of my point, how many people have the time for that. Shooting is like a lot of other skills, you have to practice, practice, practice.

When I was much younger the Air Force gave me the opportunity to shoot a dedicated gun with virtually all the ammo I could stand to shoot. I still have the knowledge but lack the practice and my platform (me) is not very stable anymore.

That alone would keep me from the high end and most of the mid range market. I can't do the gun justice.

 

[Billm]

Kind of my point, how many people have the time for that. Shooting is like a lot of other skills, you have to practice, practice, practice.

When I was much younger the Air Force gave me the opportunity to shoot a dedicated gun with virtually all the ammo I could stand to shoot. I still have the knowledge but lack the practice and my platform (me) is not very stable anymore.

That alone would keep me from the high end and most of the mid range market. I can't do the gun justice.

Of course context is important too. What exactly qualifies as entry level, mid level and top tier air rifles?

 

[Billm]

Making an EBR 100yd target stencil for practice.

 

[FL22]

My $1000 Daystate 100% mechanical, regulated, walnut stock showed up a few minutes ago .

I think in some of the above posts, the importance of the used market is being forgotten about.

Keep selling those Black Wolves, I’ll be waiting very, very happily .

 

[Billm]

My $1000 Daystate 100% mechanical, regulated, walnut stock showed up a few minutes ago .

I think in some of the above posts, the importance of the used market is being forgotten about.

Keep selling those Black Wolves, I’ll be waiting very, very happily .

Congrats, I’m not sure how you have time to shoot, I’d be watching for the delivery truck each day lol.

 

[FL22]

Congrats, I’m not sure how you have time to shoot, I’d be watching for the delivery truck each day lol.

Bill, I have a scope on it now and set up at 25 yards with H&N barracuda 8 it’s is a one hole wonder .

Be happy for me, I am very happy for me lol.

 

[nightplinkers]

In my case, I did a lot of homework.

Not so much about competition level accuracy, but about utility.

For someone on a budget, flexibility actually has big value. In my case, my initial focus is small pest control requiring .177 primarily. However, .22, .25, .30 cal have their place for medium to large pest control as well and we’ll be focusing there in the future. When considering the land owner or property manager, or professional, who may have multiple pests to deal with, there is value is being able to quickly, in the field, change calibers with a $500 barrel swap vs purchasing, or carrying and maintaining several airguns. Of course we all want lots and lots of airguns, but budget be damned. So bigger picture than this can out perform that. Swappable barrels, valved buddy bottles, weight, standards, support when needed and an good delta between min tune down and max tune up capabilities also may come into the decision. These capabilities are showing up in the sub $2,000 range, but someone had to lead initially.

 

[pan60]

Personally, I don’t care what others think about my choice in airguns. I’m not spending their money. Do, I think $1000 plus air rifles, are expensive in relation to their actual cost to manufacture - absolutely. Are they overpriced: probably not, when you consider the market. The PCP marketplace is tiny. A manufacturer has to charge a price that allows them to stay in business. It’s basically the age old “economy of scale” in reverse: small market = lower demand = higher prices. I’m not sure anyone is buying an airgun as a “status symbol’, most of us are lone wolf shooters and my wife is the only one that sees my airguns and she’s indifferent to my choices lol. Life would be a lot more boring, if we all wore the same clothes, drove the same car and lived in identical homes and shot the same airguns. As far as most people not shooting well enough to justify their choice in air rifles: shooting skills are mainly limited by one’s time and effort put into honing their skills. If you work hard, learn the correct form and practice, the only thing that can hold you back is a rifle that can’t perform to your level.

a lot of folks just dont understand scale if you was only make ten guns a year you would have to charge a heck of lot to stay in business and truly even some of the larger high end companies fall in that world they just do produce enough guns the market is only so large.

 

[pan60]

My $1000 Daystate 100% mechanical, regulated, walnut stock showed up a few minutes ago .

I think in some of the above posts, the importance of the used market is being forgotten about.

Keep selling those Black Wolves, I’ll be waiting very, very happily .

I am good with used
sometimes its the only way I can get what I want

 

[Jaabaa]

Took the Aircuda' to the Range this morning. Started at 50 yards. Can you guess which one was the Crosmana? The gun don't like them, it was like a shotgun blast. I didn't even try them at 75 yrs.
But the Umerex pellets preformed great I thought..
Also the 3x9x40 cheap hammers scope did OK, need to upgrade that. I am going over to the JTS Aircuda thread next and post about these new plastic magazines they have.

 

[Florida_Man]

I replaced the fill QD valve on my PP750. Two have failed in the last month. There is a tiny little o ring that is always obliterated. I ordered two more. I plan on taking one apart and getting the size. These are in the huben blocks.

 

[SpindleB]

Of course context is important too. What exactly qualifies as entry level, mid level and top tier air rifles?

Entry level: under $1,000
Mid level: $1000 - $2000
High level: $2001 - $3000
Nuts level: $3001+

 

[Hylander]

Entry level: under $1,000
Mid level: $1000 - $2000
High level: $2001 - $3000
Nuts level: $3001+

Looks like I'll always be entry level.
But I'm ok with that
To me it is about enjoying the shoot, doesn't matter what you bring to the table.

 

[SpindleB]

Looks like I'll always be entry level.
But I'm ok with that
To me it is about enjoying the shoot, doesn't matter what you bring to the table.

I bought 1 gun new for over $1,000
The rest are $100 to $850 new and used
Right place at the right time and you can find some sweet deals used.

 

[Jaabaa]

Looks like I'll always be entry level.
But I'm ok with that
To me it is about enjoying the shoot, doesn't matter what you bring to the table.

Me to.

 

[Cantona256]

Have you shot a Zelos, Throne 2 or Challenger 2 LB?

I own an HM1000x LRT (yay lowball bid on gunbroker) so I do understand the differences. But I had the pleasure of shooting the Challenger and it actually, in my hands, out shoots the RAW. At 50 yards consistent hole in hole. Was amazing.

I own a Throne 2, the RAW is more accurate at my 45 yards but not enough to be of serious note. 1/4" vs 1/2".

I have a Niksan Ozark-TW that is as comfortable as any air rifle I have shouldered. New $380. Right up there with the Throne 2, 1/2" groups at 45 yards. And very nice looking (after a lot of sanding and linseed) Turkish Walnut. I may have won the infamous barrel lottery on that one.

If i would leave my Condor alone it is in that class too. When set to JTS 25.39 .25 at around 900FPS it is 1/2" groups. But it is so easy to modify, and I am an engineer, it requires weekly modification. Never were the most ergonomic of guns and my Condor and Talons probably less so when I get done adding regulators, plenums and big bottles.

I’m not even an engineer, just a machinist, but I understand the need to modify hahaha… I haven’t learned enough about the EQ to try anything yet… BUT I hate moving the buttplate to adjust the hammer spring so I rednecked(hand ground) a little tool to fit through the butt pad haha