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Others Pre dryer

The amount is what elites are capable of. The amount of moisture entering the filter, depends on the ambient, which obviously varies over time.

I don't understand why folks think pre drying isn't effective? If we applied the same logic to an automobile engine, then the air filter would be located in the exhaust!
 
The amount is what elites are capable of. The amount of moisture entering the filter, depends on the ambient, which obviously varies over time.

I don't understand why folks think pre drying isn't effective? If we applied the same logic to an automobile engine, then the air filter would be located in the exhaust!
Ok, that was a terrible analogy. You can do better than that.

So I’m your testing, did you test how much moisture was in the air initially, then after your pre filters? I see this as the only way to test whether or not your system does anything at all.
 
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Usually prefilters or "inlet" filters do little to nothing from what I've studied and observed over time. You will also get an thing called traveling or channeling where the air will "travel" or "channel" through the easiest passage possible around whatever medium you are trying to capture the moisture with. The best filters are the inline filters placed after condensation occurs. Also, the air on an inline filter is being forced through when it is hot, and hot air is what carries moisture to your reservoir. The issue for the prefilters is no condensing has occured and the air is still at ambient temperature. If you run another filter after the condensation occurs you should find that you are missing the majority of moisture. I don't think what you have going will hurt at all, except of course if you the air is having a hard time being pulled into the compressor but, then if it isn't, then it is likely channeling. Interesting idea though. Have you ran tests on how effective it is at capturing moisture with and without?

Just reread your post. You state that the filter reduces the moisture to "0.001 mg/liter air," what is the moisture level in a liter of air prior to your filter?

Thanks for sharing,
Atlas

Ok, that was a terrible analogy. You can do better than that.

So I’m your testing, did you test how much moisture was in the air initially, then after your pre filters? I see this as the only way to test whether or not your system does anything at all.
@Alan Yeah the .001 mg per liter of air pre-dry vs no filter at all would be useful. What kind of moisture metering tool do you use? And have you tested with and without an inline filter?
 
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Until you put out the expense to PROVE via analysis your method is viable it’s all theory.
What definitely, I think, isn’t known, is how dry should airgun air be.
 
DIN 12021 or better (breathable air). Dry nitrogen is the best because it is inert.
Agreed, nitrogen is driest but is there any manufacturer that actually states how dry the propelling gas should be ?
FX specifies in their owners manual “ONLY DRY AIR SHOULD BE USED!”.
FWB manual for the Piccolo pistol “WE RECOMMEND THE USE OF COM-PRESSED AIR CYLINDERS WITH VENTILATING AIR WITH MAX 200 BAR...” Not sure if FWB’s “VENTILLATING AIR” means breathing quality air as a result of language interpretation. In any case, neither of those two give any kind of industry recognized value for dryness.
Until someone posts the results from an air analysis third party it’s only a guess as to how pre-compression air drying compares to Grade E (scuba) air which is the recognized accepted drive gas for airguns, and of course nitrogen if you have a source for it.
 
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Agreed, nitrogen is driest but is there any manufacturer that actually states how dry the propelling gas should be ?
FX specifies in their owners manual “ONLY DRY AIR SHOULD BE USED!”.
FWB manual for the Piccolo pistol “WE RECOMMEND THE USE OF COM-PRESSED AIR CYLINDERS WITH VENTILATING AIR WITH MAX 200 BAR...” Not sure if FWB’s “VENTILLATING AIR” means breathing quality air as a result of language interpretation. In any case, neither of those two give any kind of industry recognized value for dryness.
Until someone posts the results from an air analysis third party it’s only a guess as to how pre-compression air drying compares to Grade E (scuba) air which is the recognized accepted drive gas for airguns, and of course nitrogen if you have a source for it.
You can look up the OSHA and DIN 12021 standards online for what constitutes breathable air during inspections, but it won't really help you out. In the end of the day, you are not trying to eliminate ALL moisture but rather mitigate the excess. How? Use common sense and dry as best you can within reason. Use an inline filter, don't over stroke handpumps, don't run compressors ultra hot (hot air carries moisture), etc.


I highly doubt most get to the stated standards of our instructions, but ideally we approximate it. I'm the middle of the road kind of guy I suppose.
 
Maybe we should go back to high school and take chemistry over again. Nitrogen is not inert! It is a non-reactive atmosphere to be sure, but it is not inert like the noble gasses are. Nitrogen, under the right conditions, is indeed reactive—NO2, NH3, etc.
 
Maybe we should go back to high school and take chemistry over again. Nitrogen is not inert! It is a non-reactive atmosphere to be sure, but it is not inert like the noble gasses are. Nitrogen, under the right conditions, is indeed reactive—NO2, NH3, etc.
Glad you’re puffing your chest with a chemistry lesson. Now if you’d kindly provide the science and testing to prove your theory of pre drying, I’d find more interest in that thank. Also make sure it’s in layman’s terms for us lesser superior beings!
 
What you need to ask yourself is this simple question: What impurities, and at what percentage, do you want to remove from the compressed air? This might include excess moisture, which then leads to how much moisture is bad for the mechanical parts of an airgun? Even so called dry nitrogen has some level of moisture remaining.

Then what about oils? Most compressors use some sort of wet sump for lubrication, typically petroleum based ones. Are they bad? Yes, if enough lubricant gets into the pressure vessels, which can cause dieseling. Others, like the Hill EC-3000, use injected silicon oil lubrication. It doesn't diesel, but how much is too much?

It's a matter of degrees. So it is a choice of how picky you are about containments, and where do you draw the line of cost vs. benefit? If you're really picky, then a high pressure, freeze dryer (lyophilizer), like those used to assure that dry nitrogen is as dry as possible may be the next level. It all harkens back to the first sentence of this paragraph: It's a matter of degrees. I feel pre drying is adequate, you may not.
 
What you need to ask yourself is this simple question: What impurities, and at what percentage, do you want to remove from the compressed air? This might include excess moisture, which then leads to how much moisture is bad for the mechanical parts of an airgun? Even so called dry nitrogen has some level of moisture remaining.

Then what about oils? Most compressors use some sort of wet sump for lubrication, typically petroleum based ones. Are they bad? Yes, if enough lubricant gets into the pressure vessels, which can cause dieseling. Others, like the Hill EC-3000, use injected silicon oil lubrication. It doesn't diesel, but how much is too much?

It's a matter of degrees. So it is a choice of how picky you are about containments, and where do you draw the line of cost vs. benefit? If you're really picky, then a high pressure, freeze dryer (lyophilizer), like those used to assure that dry nitrogen is as dry as possible may be the next level. It all harkens back to the first sentence of this paragraph: It's a matter of degrees. I feel pre drying is adequate, you may not.
Initially your point was that pre drying air is better than post drying. I get the drying part, besides the fact you still lack proof that it does what you say it does. The fact still remains, most compressors we would be buying aftermarket “dryers” for are because they’re cheap and dirty by natures. Oils and contaminants from the compressor are more worrisome these days than actual moisture. Your pre drying system might work wonders for moisture, but as you said, oils from compressors are usually not what we would want in our airguns. There’s surely a reason why EVERY top of the line compressor manufacturer out there has their filtration AFTER compression has taken place. Can you explain why your “cheaper” system hasn’t been adopted by those companies that have been in this business for decades?
 
Initially your point was that pre drying air is better than post drying. I get the drying part, besides the fact you still lack proof that it does what you say it does. The fact still remains, most compressors we would be buying aftermarket “dryers” for are because they’re cheap and dirty by natures. Oils and contaminants from the compressor are more worrisome these days than actual moisture. Your pre drying system might work wonders for moisture, but as you said, oils from compressors are usually not what we would want in our airguns. There’s surely a reason why EVERY top of the line compressor manufacturer out there has their filtration AFTER compression has taken place. Can you explain why your “cheaper” system hasn’t been adopted by those companies that have been in this business for decades?
Well said.
 
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Take a 10 foot wide hallway with a bunch of obstacles and force 100 people to run through it, then do the same thing with 1000 people, more people will hit the obstacles the second time around than the first time (if any at all hit said obstacles the first time) .... the people are the air molecules, I explain in laymans terms because I am not that well versed but common sense and rationale does help.

Thats why most put the drier after compression.
 
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Maybe we should go back to high school and take chemistry over again. Nitrogen is not inert! It is a non-reactive atmosphere to be sure, but it is not inert like the noble gasses are. Nitrogen, under the right conditions, is indeed reactive—NO2, NH3, etc.
It is considered relatively inert for airgun applications. Inert i.e. containing an insufficient amount of oxygen to support combustion. Dry nitrogen has been purged of water vapors vs nitrogen that has small amounts of it still.

Here is a helpful article to get a practical grasp on the benefits of nitrogen for airguns.
 
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Agreed, nitrogen is driest but is there any manufacturer that actually states how dry the propelling gas should be ?
FX specifies in their owners manual “ONLY DRY AIR SHOULD BE USED!”.
FWB manual for the Piccolo pistol “WE RECOMMEND THE USE OF COM-PRESSED AIR CYLINDERS WITH VENTILATING AIR WITH MAX 200 BAR...” Not sure if FWB’s “VENTILLATING AIR” means breathing quality air as a result of language interpretation. In any case, neither of those two give any kind of industry recognized value for dryness.
Until someone posts the results from an air analysis third party it’s only a guess as to how pre-compression air drying compares to Grade E (scuba) air which is the recognized accepted drive gas for airguns, and of course nitrogen if you have a source for it.
Weihrauch is one example that cites DIN 12021(European standard). Honestly though it would be the will-o'-the-wisp to get lost in the weeds of standards that you have no way of certifying in the first place. As I stated as an objective: use common sense practices to remove moisture to breathable air quality (breathable has a fair bit of moisture in it). Filter, check and replace the medium often, and don't fret about it.
 
Take a 10 foot wide hallway with a bunch of obstacles and force 100 people to run through it, then do the same thing with 1000 people, more people will hit the obstacles the second time around than the first time (if any at all hit said obstacles the first time) .... the people are the air molecules, I explain in laymans terms because I am not that well versed but common sense and rationale does help.

Thats why most put the drier after compression.
I think the thing too is that the air becoming hot in the condensation process will be one of the main culprits in the water vapor getting into the rifle
 
Weihrauch is one example that cites DIN 12021(European standard). Honestly though it would be the will-o'-the-wisp to get lost in the weeds of standards that you have no way of certifying in the first place. They are a stated as an objective: use common sense practices to remove moisture to breathable air quality (breathable has a fair bit of moisture in it). Filter, check and replace the medium often, and don't fret about it.
My method of fueling my airguns.
 

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My method of fueling my airguns.
That is me 100%. I am always learning on this stuff and by no means an expert. Actually, the person I would trust on this matter here is the man the myth and the legend @hameditor because he probably has some good resources (articles and stuff) that he has read or written on the matter. Perhaps if he has time he can chime in.
 
I've been experimenting with feeding my GX compressors nitrogen at an inlet pressure of 5-10 psi and a flow of something on the order of 20-25 cfm. It does several things,
1) it's dry
2) it lower the compression slightly, making the compressor run better with a slight cooling effect
3) fills faster, with the help of inlet pressure being higher, and no need to fill a large filter, so it runs cooler
4) no need to mess with filters that we have no good way of knowing if they are working except inspecting our rifle cylinders, and then, if they're not working, it's too late.
5) it cheaper than filters, as 2215 psi bottled nitrogen is cheap

I'm by NO MEANS the first person to try this, in fact, I got the idea to try from reading what others have done. I just perfected my setup and am happy it works so well. GX CS2 compressors have a 1/2" NPT thread on the handle/inlet, so fittings are easy to find. I also have a CS3, which uses a small tube to hold the filter cotton, which I'm going to try and adapt to connect some kind of hose to. That's in the works, but for now, the CS2 is the berries. I only fill rifles with cylinders from ~200-500cc, and filling is super fast. I've attached a pic of my setup, the blue filter on the inlet has no media in it. It is simply an air chamber to dampen the flutter of the air gauge needle and keep the supply of air constant.
 

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