Others TalonP Carbine, Better Late than Never!

[Pumacarl]

Well, I'm late to this party, way beyond fashionably late too, but I am going to do some catching up. If anybody would like to chime in and steer me in the right direction as I learn this gun, that would be greatly appreciated. I'm going to share my findings as I go in this thread and I know it will be boring to most but maybe someone will find it useful. I kind of have been using these posts as my cloud storage for my projects so that I can go back and check on my notes too, so if it sounds Like I'm rambling to myself sometimes, it's because I probably am.

This week I just received a TalonP carbine that I bought used on AGN classifieds. Overall, it seems to be in good shape, but I don't really know how to guage some issues with it either, yet. The previous owner had attached a TC recoil pad to the butt plate and I removed it because it was big and ugly and served no purpose really. I cut up an old rubber mud flap about a 1/4" thick and contact cemented that to the buttplate instead, just for grip and protection and so it wouldn't slip if I stood it up against a wall. It actually didn't come out that great, but serves its purpose. There was also left on it a small one slot pic rail under the the shroud in front of the foregrip. I installed a little $7 laser on it just for kicks. I ended up putting a 20y zero on the laser and inputted a negative -1.890" scope height in Strelok and it works. Thankfully, also thrown into the package, there was a very handy cheekrest/storage bag to go over the bottle that I keep pellets in and a light that I can attach onto the laser which is a low flat unit with a pic rail built into it. A +10moa UTG picatinny scope base(which came with the gun too) is what I mounted the Bushnell TRS-25 red dot to.

 

[Pumacarl]

The first night I had the TalonP, I started testing its power, in relation to its fill pressure and hammerspring settings. What I didn't know, at the time, was that the pressure guage on the gun is 350psi off. So all my original comments about shots, and power, at what levels, were wrong. The final, corrected numbers, for what I am running is; JSB 34gr MKII at avg 820fps for 10 shots, es of 30, starting at 2850psi and finishing at 2350psi with the hammerspring at 9. I like these numbers for now, but I do have some slugs on hand for testing later. I noticed that this gun loves heavy ammo, the 43gr Eugins were doing 56fpe. I don't have enough of those to really test those though. The gun with the suppressor on is not that loud at all. Everyone was telling me that if I want to run my shot string at the 50fpe level it would really bark, but that's not what I'm finding at all.

 

[Pumacarl]

What I don't have any frame of reference for is how the bolt should feel cocking and if the bolt knob is actually loose, or is it made that way. I did watch a video that showed how the breech was not supposed to have play, front to back, when cocked and locked, and this gun does have some so I do have to get that out. Plus, I can only disengage the safety if the bolt is swung to the right, is that normal? All things to look into and learn.

 

[Farmplinker2]

Well, I'll be following this thread, because I'm looking at an AirForce for my next nice airgun.

 

[PapaT]

Basically what P-Rifle thread has been for me, and I'm okay with that. Following this, as TalonP Carbine was on my planned list for this year. We'll see when it actually pans out.

 

[Pumacarl]

I am planning on ordering some parts from Talon Tunes because his website seems to be the best place to find enhanced performance parts for AirForce airguns that are not on ebay or Aliexpress. I'm thinking hard on this [ HP One Piece Top Hat And Stem - TalonAirguns ] or the one made for the .30 Condor

What I am going to be trying to achieve with this TalonP is to keep it at its original length, and parts count (actually I might be able to lessen the parts count) and get the max power that I can, out of 3000psi, for at least three shots, with no more than a 25fps es and accuracy for those shots to be 1.5" @53y. Right now it is doing 51fpe for 10 shots, but I'd like to see if I could break 60fpe for 3 accurate shots. Anything more will be gravy, but I think that this should be doable. Just out of curiousity and the fact that I almost never shoot more than 3 times at anything anyways. This little power house has shown me fast that my original expectations for it were a little too easy. The game is on.

 

[JimT66]

I am planning on ordering some parts from Talon Tunes because his website seems to be the best place to find enhanced performance parts for AirForce airguns that are not on ebay or Aliexpress. I'm thinking hard on this [ HP One Piece Top Hat And Stem - TalonAirguns ] or the one made for the .30 Condor

What I am going to be trying to achieve with this TalonP is to keep it at its original length, and parts count (actually I might be able to lessen the parts count) and get the max power that I can, out of 3000psi, for at least three shots, with no more than a 25fps es and accuracy for those shots to be 1.5" @53y. Right now it is doing 51fpe for 10 shots, but I'd like to see if I could break 60fpe for 3 accurate shots. Anything more will be gravy, but I think that this should be doable. Just out of curiousity and the fact that I almost never shoot more than 3 times at anything anyways. This little power house has shown me fast that my original expectations for it were a little too easy. The game is on.

How much in commonality does the Escape SS and the TalonP have with each other? I just bought Chiefs .22 SS, with the full size Condor tank. I already have his old Condor, with a regulated tank on it, so I am trying to learn.

 

[Pumacarl]

How much in commonality does the Escape SS and the TalonP have with each other? I just bought Chiefs .22 SS, with the full size Condor tank. I already have his old Condor, with a regulated tank on it, so I am trying to learn.

I am just learning this stuff too. There is a lot to learn. People have been using these since 2004 so they have developed quite a history. I plan on sharing what I find out but my knowledge at this point is minimal. I think that the Escape SS is just the Talon SS with a smaller bottle and a tank mounted shoulder stock like what's on the TalonP carbine. The SS models have silencing baffles in the shroud. The TalonP has nothing for sound suppression and is basially a big pistol. The TalonP carbine has a big shroud mounted moderator and the bottle mounted shoulder stock. The important thing to know is how do you want to use what you have. What power level do you want and how many shots at that power. Once you set a goal than you just assemble or adjust the gun to make that happen. There are parts available to do whatever you want an airgun to do.

 

[Pumacarl]

I did order some parts from Talon Tunes today. I got the aluminum breech block and a new pessure guage, a stiffer hammerspring and a hammer weight. I had to get the Spinlock Bottle wrench straight from Airforce itself.

 

[Chief55]

No sir the Escape SS is much more powerful than the Talon SS. The Escape SS is the same as a Talon P carbine but with a built-in moderator. The Talon SS is made for 20/25 low power shots. I believe they have different valves in the bottles and possibly different hammer weights and springs.
At Pyramid air they are rated as.
Talon SS .25 max velocity 665fps
Talon P carbine .25 max velocity 900fps
Escape SS .25 max velocity 900fps
I listed them all in .25 because of the Talon P coming in .25.
Given that Jims Escape SS is in .22 with the Condor bottle it can shoot 1000+fps 20/25 shots. The Condor bottle gives twice as many shots as the small bottle but weighs 2 pounds more. I find that all the airforce guns I have had actually shot faster than the Max velocities advertised. The Escape models are their high-power, light weight survival/bugout line and with the same length barrels they have the same power as the Condors but are a couple of pounds lighter. The Talons are actually their low power line and in my opinion the Talon P should have been named the Escape P because it is more in line with the Escape models.

 

[JimT66]

Thanks for that Chief!

 

[Pumacarl]

No sir the Escape SS is much more powerful than the Talon SS. The Escape SS is the same as a Talon P carbine but with a built-in moderator. The Talon SS is made for 20/25 low power shots. I believe they have different valves in the bottles and possibly different hammer weights and springs.
At Pyramid air they are rated as.
Talon SS .25 max velocity 665fps
Talon P carbine .25 max velocity 900fps
Escape SS .25 max velocity 900fps
I listed them all in .25 because of the Talon P coming in .25.
Given that Jims Escape SS is in .22 with the Condor bottle it can shoot 1000+fps 20/25 shots. The Condor bottle gives twice as many shots as the small bottle but weighs 2 pounds more. I find that all the airforce guns I have had actually shot faster than the Max velocities advertised. The Escape models are their high-power, light weight survival/bugout line and with the same length barrels they have the same power as the Condors but are a couple of pounds lighter. The Talons are actually their low power line and I my opinion the Talon P should have been named the Escape P because it is more in line with the Escape models.

Thanks for setting the record straight! I was shopping for a more powerful valve for my TalonP and I did think it strange that the TalonP stats seemed to read better than the Talon SS. I thought it was a typo. You're right, the naming is backwards, everyone just about always assumes a pistol version of something is going to be the lesser powered version.

 

[Pumacarl]

It's funny, I was going to go on a little bit of a rant about some of the design choices on this gun, that they have had 21 years to fix, but I had a really good day shooting my other airguns, and thought better of it. Having been reading a lot of old posts, nothing that I would say, hasn't been said already, repeatedly. What bothers me is that the deaf ear that AirForce seems to have is very similar to the one Crosman had. At least AirForce is innovating their newer lines, like the Texans, and the company seems to be doing well. It just kind of ticks me off when something can be around long enough, to be loved enough, that a whole cottage industry of aftermarket parts can develop, without the manufacturer saying, "you know, we should probably fix that." Instead, like just about every other gun I've had (Paradigm excluded) I will be fixing the ongoing problems myself, of a very mature design. The feet dragging is just mind boggling sometimes.

 

[Farmplinker2]

It's funny, I was going to go on a little bit of a rant about some of the design choices on this gun, that they have had 21 years to fix, but I had a really good day shooting my other airguns, and thought better of it. Having been reading a lot of old posts, nothing that I would say, hasn't been said already, repeatedly. What bothers me is that the deaf ear that AirForce seems to have is very similar to the one Crosman had. At least AirForce is innovating their newer lines, like the Texans, and the company seems to be doing well. It just kind of ticks me off when something can be around long enough, to be loved enough, that a whole cottage industry of aftermarket parts can develop, without the manufacturer saying, "you know, we should probably fix that." Instead, like just about every other gun I've had (Paradigm excluded) I will be fixing the ongoing problems myself, of a very mature design. The feet dragging is just mind boggling sometimes.

It's one of those "damned if you do, and damned if you don't" situations. MOST people will be satisfied with the performance of the factory version. And a lot of aftermarket changes aren't necessarily backwards compatible. Which is something AirForce apparently makes sure happens when it.does change something.
After all, one of the annoying things in life is trying to get repair parts. "What serial number range is it?" "Oh, we're sorry. You ordered the proper rebuild kit, but there was a few that used the old ----, so you need to order that separately. Unless you want to order our update kit?"

 

[Pumacarl]

It's one of those "damned if you do, and damned if you don't" situations. MOST people will be satisfied with the performance of the factory version. And a lot of aftermarket changes aren't necessarily backwards compatible. Which is something AirForce apparently makes sure happens when it.does change something.
After all, one of the annoying things in life is trying to get repair parts. "What serial number range is it?" "Oh, we're sorry. You ordered the proper rebuild kit, but there was a few that used the old ----, so you need to order that separately. Unless you want to order our update kit?"

A lot of new people just don't know better, ...yet, and experienced airgunners just shrug it off and work around it, and the original bad idea persists.

If somebody doesn't know what I'm talking about, it's the automatic safety. Now, an automatic safety isn't necessarily a bad thing, if, and only if, you can shut it off and de-cock the gun! I remembered why I never bought an AirForce before, and this was the reason. Back then, I was not into working on airguns, so I passed on it. I once had a Marksman branded H/W 58S springer that could not be de-cocked and I hated that feature so badly that my brother got it. That was a superb airgun, except for that. My FWB124D had an automatic safety that could be disengaged and the gun de-cocked, so I know that the Germans had already figured out how to do this, but simply chose not to. So I chose to never buy another H/W. It is that big of a deal to me. [On a side note, it bugged my brother too, years later when I had started working on everything, I made the safety into a manual one for him.]

Not being able to de-cock a loaded gun without firing it, is, and always will be, a non-starter for me to live with. I believe it to be more dangerous, and it certainly is more of a pain to deal with. These days, to me, it's just something to fix, but it is still a bad idea in the first place.

While I'm at it, 'a plastic breech?' come on AirForce!, on an airgun putting out the power of this little monster, you still have this as plastic? Mine, won't be for long!

I think this airgun is awesome but I don't let the dumb stuff slide. I am not a "hater" or a "fanboy" of much, I've seen smart people do stupid things, and vice versa. Calling out things is a call for improvement not criticism. What surprised me, reading old posts, is for how long people have been complaining about this, and fanboy regulars show up and shut them down, or defend the feature, like it's something that they prefer, yet I have never seen a post where someone modified their airgun to work this way. It makes one question their sincerity.

 

[CTAirgunner]

Calling out things is a call for improvement not criticism.

This is superbly accurate, unfortunately everyone becomes immediately offended now a days, criticism has turned into attacks, especially in a world where text leaves a lot to be desired when it comes to tone.

When I bought my Talon P, and started reading on it 3 years ago, this was everyone's complaint as well. The auto safety , luckily, is easily remedied by the DIY'er but after 20 years of production you'd think they'd have upgraded to aluminum components over plastic by now.

 

[Pumacarl]

This is superbly accurate, unfortunately everyone becomes immediately offended now a days, criticism has turned into attacks, especially in a world where text leaves a lot to be desired when it comes to tone.

When I bought my Talon P, and started reading on it 3 years ago, this was everyone's complaint as well. The auto safety , luckily, is easily remedied by the DIY'er but after 20 years of production you'd think they'd have upgraded to aluminum components over plastic by now.

Exactly!

 

[PapaT]

Interesting, my Texan has auto safety, but you can still de-cock the gun.

 

[CTAirgunner]

Interesting, my Texan has auto safety, but you can still de-cock the gun.

From what I remember, there has been 2 different auto safety setups, the second version is supposed to be less problematic than the original, but thats as much as I can remember, I just removed it on my rifles.

 

[Pumacarl]

I don't know the age of my TalonP, if the new ones are de-cockable, good for them, but it certainly took long enough!