Benchrest Slug shooters being left out?

[Pumacarl]

Let me try again.

An exceptional slug:barrel combination will absolutely shoot better at long range than even the best long range pellets. That's as simple as BC.

The issue arises with the low percentage of slug/barrel combinations that are exceptional, at least in my personal testing.

Pick ten average quality airguns and shoot pellets through them at...say even 75 yards. Most, if not all ten of them are going to group pretty well.
Pick ten average quality airguns and shoot slugs through them, at the same 75 yards. Chances that slim that even one of them is going to shoot accurately enough to have any further interest in shooting them.

Supposedly the odds are better with Altaros-types (hasn't been the case for me). But then your paying 3-4x as much as the cheap pellets that shot quite good in 9 or ten of the guns in the 10-gun comparison above.

Let me try again. That's your problem. That's the next guys problem. That's the field's problem to figure out, or not. That is what getting ready to compete is all about. Don't concern yourself with the percentages of what works, just find what works for you. Everyone else can do the same. Nobody asks the champion at a match how many barrels did you need to test before you found the one, the answer is always the same, as many as necessary. If you personally believe that it is not possible, or probable, to compete with slugs under 75y, in your testing; then don't. Why should your opinion stop someone else from trying? Again, I'm not trying to be snarky or argumenative here, just let competitors compete with what they want. They want to win, and will use what they believe will give them the best chance. It's not really for anyone else to decide. Let the chips fall where they may.

 

[Centercut]

I’ve had that experience with light slugs, but with heavy slugs it has been very easy for me. Anything 35 grains and up shoots great out of my Epic and Mora. Out of the box they both shoot the new .22 cal 40 grain ACE slugs within MOA at 200 yards and one hole at 50 yards. Tuning for them was a breeze. I use to shoot .30 cal pellets and let me tell you I’ll never go back.

Bingo. Pellet gun with pellet barrel, it’s a crap shoot with slugs. Slug gun with slug barrel, easy day. And more accurate than pellets, even at 50 yards. At the WRABF World Chsmpionships a few weeks ago, the Unlimited 50M class was totally dominated by slugs. I’m not even sure anyone in the top 20 shot pellets…

I hope big comps like EBR and RMAC decide to add a slug competition to the menu. It needs to be separate and not as an option in the 100Y event, since everyone would shoot slugs anyway. It’s a no brainer.

 

[Franklink]

Let me try again. That's your problem. That's the next guys problem. That's the field's problem to figure out, or not. That is what getting ready to compete is all about. Don't concern yourself with the percentages of what works, just find what works for you. Everyone else can do the same. Nobody asks the champion at a match how many barrels did you need to test before you found the one, the answer is always the same, as many as necessary. If you personally believe that it is not possible, or probable, to compete with slugs under 75y, in your testing; then don't. Why should your opinion stop someone else from trying? Again, I'm not trying to be snarky or argumenative here, just let competitors compete with what they want. They want to win, and will use what they believe will give them the best chance. It's not really for anyone else to decide. Let the chips fall where they may.

It is the product showcase event organizers that decide.

And we won't see a slug class at the big product showcase until that events organizers feel their guns have the best chance of winning a slug class.

EBR and RMAC are at their root, trade shows. They were created to give the manufacturers that they're associated with, a place to showcase their products. THEY are who decides whether or not slug classes will be a part of their events.

 

[Pumacarl]

Putting pellets and slugs together wouldn’t work.

Centercut, I usually agree with what you say, but this time I don't. Of course it would work. You would have winners and losers, just like every other match ever held before. This is actually exactly what needs to happen to hammer home the point. I would say one way or the other, but I don't believe that either, there is only one way this is going. People need to see it, to believe it. Let them, let all of us, see how a mixed match would turn out.

 

[Airgunsruinedmylife]

Specifying that we're talking about the "high-powered realm of airguns" yes, I can agree with you there. Slugs are the future of high powered airguns. They don't have much to contend with, since the prior high-powered airguns were big bored that got a couple shots per fill.

The industry has created an entire new class of airguns. And that class has much more in common with powder burners than it does with airgunning's roots.

Not the squeaky wheel online for sure, but there's still a very large percentage of airgunners that enjoy them in their traditional power levels. I don't expect that to change.

.30 cal 66 grains pellets at high speeds shoot just as good as slugs and they aren’t considered to be in a different class. I hate when people bracket firearms with airguns. Airguns can just perform just as good as rimfire now and that’s it. Has nothing to do with “roots”.

 

[Franklink]

....Airguns can just perform just as good as rimfire now and that’s it....

Yep, that's what I said.

 

[Centercut]

Centercut, I usually agree with what you say, but this time I don't. Of course it would work. You would have winners and losers, just like every other match ever held before. This is actually exactly what needs to happen to hammer home the point. I would say one way or the other, but I don't believe that either, there is only one way this is going. People need to see it, to believe it. Let them, let all of us, see how a mixed match would turn out.

I see your point, but we’ve already been there done that at the Oregon event every first week in May. This event draws about 40 shooters.

Two years in a row now we’ve had 100Y Pellet and 100Y Slug competitions. Same target, the EBR target. Both years the top 5 in slugs averaged 15 to 17 points higher than the top 5 in pellets.
I shoot a lot of these events and don’t know anyone that would choose pellets over slugs given the option.

It’s like the WRABF World Championship Unlimited 50M. The shooter could choose pellets or slugs. They (almost) all chose slugs….

 

[Franklink]

.30 cal 66 grains pellets at high speeds shoot just as good as slugs

Just a few posts earlier you said you'd never leave slugs to go back to the .30 pellets.

 

[Airgunsruinedmylife]

Bingo. Pellet gun with pellet barrel, it’s a crap shoot with slugs. Slug gun with slug barrel, easy day. And more accurate than pellets, even at 50 yards. At the WRABF World Chsmpionships a few weeks ago, the Unlimited 50M class was totally dominated by slugs. I’m not even sure anyone in the top 20 shot pellets…

I hope big comps like EBR and RMAC decide to add a slug competition to the menu. It needs to be separate and not as an option in the 100Y event, since everyone would shoot slugs anyway. It’s a no brainer.

I don’t think they have a choice, but to add slug classes. Every content creator I watch primarily uses them and they are rapidly growing in popularity with average Joe shooters. All the long range hunters are using them now. It’s really hard to want to shoot a pellet nowadays unless it’s field target.

 

[Pumacarl]

Just a few posts earlier you said you'd never leave slugs to go back to the .30 pellets.

Man, I have changed my mind on a lot of stuff too, but it is a funnny gotcha!

 

[Airgunsruinedmylife]

Just a few posts earlier you said you'd never leave slugs to go back to the .30 pellets.

I wouldn’t, but you are insinuating slug guns have too much power to compete in benchrest. Some of the pellet guns used at EBR and RMAC make just as much if not more.

 

[Franklink]

Centercut, I usually agree with what you say, but this time I don't. Of course it would work. You would have winners and losers, just like every other match ever held before. This is actually exactly what needs to happen to hammer home the point. I would say one way or the other, but I don't believe that either, there is only one way this is going. People need to see it, to believe it. Let them, let all of us, see how a mixed match would turn out.

Since this is all hypothetical anyway....

I could get behind fpe-limited classes, kinda like we have in AAFTA field target.

Something like a sub50 fpe class, and a 50-100fpe class, and a 100+ fpe class. Hell, even let people choose pellets or slugs with their preferred fpe class. Guaran-damn-tee you the 50+ fpe classes would be shooting slugs....and the sub50 class would be a bit more of a gray area. We did something similar at the Ultimate Field Target matches last winter. Ben started a 50fpe class, pellets or slugs. Even with my exceptional 35fpe slugger, Barb Pelegrino out-shot me with 25.4grain .22 pellets, right under 50fpe. And I think she out shot me at multiple monthly matches.

 

[Pumacarl]

For the record, I still love shooting pellets for a lot of reasons, but for winning matches to determine who is the most accurate shooter on any given day, I wouldn't use pellets for that. Kudos to those who can pull that off going forward!

 

[Franklink]

I wouldn’t, but you are insinuating slug guns have too much power to compete in benchrest. Some of the pellet guns used at EBR and RMAC make just as much if not more.

No, I wasnt thinking they have too much power for benchrest. Sorry if my choice of words implied that.

I was trying to point out that the new age of boat-tailed slugs, at the speeds most guys are shooting them these days, is an entirely different category of airguns than everything we've known prior. And in fact, shares more aspects with powder-burners than it does with airguns.

The .30 pellets, even with similar starting fpes, are gonna get stripped of that energy much faster than the slugs. The new-age slugs have BCs 4x better than those pelletd.

 

[Airgunsruinedmylife]

No, I wasnt thinking they have too much power for benchrest. Sorry if my choice of words implied that.

I was trying to point out that the new age of boat-tailed slugs, at the speeds most guys are shooting them these days, is an entirely different category of airguns than everything we've known prior. And in fact, shares more aspects with powder-burners than it does with airguns.

The .30 slugs, even with similar starting fpes, are gonna get stripped of that energy much faster than the slugs. The new-age slugs have BCs 4x better than those pellets.

I agree with that. Heavy flat based none boat tail slugs shoot just as good as well. Just don’t buck the wind as good.

 

[Pumacarl]

Nice discussion guys! This was a good back and forth. There has not been many of these lately. A shame.

 

[Luis Leon]

Yes. Yes. And yes.

I am also skeptical that we've reached a majority of airgunners launching slugs.

If I was faced with a choice of slugs or pellets, I'd keep pellets.

Slugs are a pain in the ass.

Slug downsides...
Expensive. At least for the high BC slugs.
Heavier air usage than pellets.
Safety. Downrange energy retention.
And the biggest....success rates with slugs. Slugs are the absolute opposite of pellets when it comes to plug and play. Quality pellets will more often than not shoot pretty well from quality airguns. Quality slugs will more often than not shoot like $hit from quality airguns.

I own one gun that shoots slugs at an acceptable level of accuracy, and even then that slug gun is only 35fpe. I own 10ish airguns that will shoot multiple flavors of pellets at an acceptable level of accuracy. And that's not for lack of trying. I've ran a whole bunch of slugs through a whole bunch of barrels.

Slugs are the path of most resistance when reinventing the rimfire wheel.

I like airguns for what they are. Precision and accuracy out to about 100 yards. Lots of trigger time. Low cost per shot ratio. Quiet. Enjoyable.

Sorry bout the rant. Perhaps just a bit (re) bitter (ed) up today after running a bunch of slugs through yet another new barrel yesterday and only seeing the typical slug outcome: subpar accuracy.

So well said, by a person who has put in the time. While I feel it’s legit for those who want to go the slug route to do so. And that slugs are here to stay, I came to airguns to shoot pellets. My gun safe is full of powder burning sluggers, for me? Zero desire to recreate the same with my PCPs. The lower power goodness and opportunities presented by such are negated for me if sending slugs.

 

[Airgunsruinedmylife]

So well said, by a person who has put in the time. While I feel it’s legit for those who want to go the slug route to do so. And that slugs are here to stay, I came to airguns to shoot pellets. My gun safe is full of powder burning sluggers, for me? Zero desire to recreate the same with my PCPs. The lower power goodness and opportunities presented by such are negated for me if sending slugs.

So you don’t have a airgun that shoots slugs? The experience is a lot different than a firearm and has major advantages for long range pesting. I have to have an airgun that shoots slugs at this point.

 

[wolfmangreg]

The pellets inferior ballistics are exactly why many shooters got into air rifles in the first place. Low-ish powered projectiles that shed the energy they do have quickly = safer backyard shooting.

Internet airgun forums really skew the perception of the airgunning community as a whole. A newbie browsing them for the first time could easily get the impression that nearly everyone is shooting high powered rifles, usually with slugs.

In reality the "averge Joe airgunner" is probably shooting a 12-35 fpe gun with pellets, and doing so precisely because they can't or shouldn't be shooting a rimfire (or high powered airgun with super high bc slugs) in the backyard.

Might be that eventually, the pool of shooters competing with the new ultra high bc slugs (and rifles that shoot them well) is populated more by those coming from the rimfire competition world than from the longer tenured airgun competitions like field target.

 

[Pumacarl]

So well said, by a person who has put in the time. While I feel it’s legit for those who want to go the slug route to do so. And that slugs are here to stay, I came to airguns to shoot pellets. My gun safe is full of powder burning sluggers, for me? Zero desire to recreate the same with my PCPs. The lower power goodness and opportunities presented by such are negated for me if sending slugs.

I see your point, and I see past it too. For example, I have a 21fpe .177, that is for pesting where I don't want a lot of power or pass throughs. Franklink is right that slugs are a huge pain in the ass, but that ends once you find one and then they are not. I'm shooting further, flatter, with less wind drift, and here is the biggie - with less pass through, using a 10gr slug that just about explodes on impact. It's still at a low power 21 fpe, quiet goodness, just doing everything better. There use to be a TV commercial where the model said "don't hate me because I'm beautiful," well I would say the same to you about slugs. LOL