Spring/Piston OEM vs Pro Tuned vs Custom springers...

[Kragman1]

Alright everyone, this could turn into a long thread so I'll try to keep the premise short:

Using quality OEM rifles as the baseline, what are the real world benefits of a quality tune or a custom rifle? The custom one is a little tricky, so let's consider them to be "bespoke" rifles, especially in stock profile and dimensions.
(Buying a custom rifle made to someone else's specifications is obviously on the table too, so feel free to discuss that, just keep the unique circumstances in mind.)

I have never owned any sort of custom rifle but I do own two rifles that were tuned by John in PA:
- a Feinwerkbau 124 that I bought with disintegrated seals and had him reseal and tune. That rifle is in its optimum performance envelope IMO. The only thing "lacking" is the trigger, which I asked him to leave in more or less original condition. It's better than it was without being light. It is good, not great. Similar to a Diana T05 I suppose.
- a Weihrauch 35e which he owned and was about to tune & sell. We agreed on a price and I asked him to give it every possible tuning benefit, focus on fine shot cycle without wasting any velocity. He did just that and the rifle is a real winner. A joy to shoot with thrilling accuracy.

That said, I have a friend with a stock 97k that is just as accurate. If not, then it's more accurate.

BTW, when I say accurate, I mean after working out preferred hold & pellet selection. As you all know, some rifles are "naturals" and some need experimentation...

So, I'd love to hear your experiences, and your insights into tuned & custom rifles.
- Short stroked your FWB Sport because you wanted an even faster firing cycle? Tell us about it.
- Went all in and converted an old Walther 55 to a gas ram? Tell us about it.
- Haven't needed to touch your old Diana 36 because you really know how to shoot it? Explain please.

Etc.
Etc.

 

[jlowe]

Every springer that I have ever owned that was tuned by me shoots better than stock. I have owned several Maccari tuned springers and several Paul Watts tuned springers. They shot way better than stock. The comparison wasn't even close. I've owned every HW springer. The HW97 is good out of the box, but not the same as tuned. Maybe I'm getting old. When I started in 2000, springers ran the show, but obviously no longer. Very few people today have real experience with tuned springers.

 

[AirVOE]

Having owned a few dozen quality springers in my half-century of spring-piston experience with them, some observations.

1) As is not unusual in mechanical gizmos, 'quality' is largely a European-manufacture thing.
2) Most of my quality springers have been HWs. Most suffered spring fatigue or FAILURE within a couple thousand rounds.
3) Hence, HW springers only qualify as 'quality' when fitted with aftermarket springs.
4) Then, they're great.
5) Correction- though a well-adjusted Rekord trigger is impressive in how it trips, the adjustments and stamped-steel housing 'not so much'.
6) The Air Arms TX200, Pro Sport and Pro Elite are worthwhile in stock form.
6) Shortly before or after he retired from tuning springers, Paul Watts told me he doesn't feel the need to tune Pro Elites. Even his own.
7) Cheap springers have been responsible for stunting the growth of airgunning, virtue not only to their lack of dependability, but harsh firing behavior rendering them inaccurate in human hands.
8) Spring-piston rifles are the most difficult to master of any, and (non-recoilless) spring-pistols magnitudes moreso. In fact I consider non-recoilless spring-piston pistols the most difficult of all guns to master to any degree(s) of accuracy.
9) These observations are both spring-piston attractants, and repellants.
10) Which brings to mind some adages. A) "Pick your poison." B) "One man's trash is another man's treasure." C) "There is hardly anything that someone, somewhere can't produce worse and cheaper; and he who considers price alone is this man's lawful prey."

 

[Farmplinker2]

Don't have an untuned version to compare, but when I got my tuned Cometa 220 from Keystone Airguns it was awesome. I was like, " oh, THIS is what people mean by a good springer"!

 

[BeemanHW100]

Every springer that I have ever owned that was tuned by me shoots better than stock. I have owned several Maccari tuned springers and several Paul Watts tuned springers. They shot way better than stock. The comparison wasn't even close. I've owned every HW springer. The HW97 is good out of the box, but not the same as tuned. Maybe I'm getting old. When I started in 2000, springers ran the show, but obviously no longer. Very few people today have real experience with tuned springers.

If you don’t mind my asking, what did you change when you tuned an HW 97? I have one that I bought used and to my knowledge it has not been apart. I personally have not taken it apart because to me it shoots better than I do. My first high quality springer so I may not realize if it could be better.

 

[jlowe]

Better parts equal less friction, equal better accuracy and more consistent velocity, equals better accuracy. I basically buy the tune kit including a piston seal, then polish out all the rough spots inside. Then put it back together. The guys who shoot competition with the HW97 normally install a 12 foot pound tune kit, which makes it even easier to shoot accurately. The HW97 shoots well out of the box especially compared to other air gun makers. I started out with a Beeman R-1 aka Weihrauch HW80 25 years ago. That was after owning a Gamo.

 

[BeemanHW100]

Better parts equal less friction, equal better accuracy and more consistent velocity, equals better accuracy. I basically buy the tune kit including a piston seal, then polish out all the rough spots inside. Then put it back together. The guys who shoot competition with the HW97 normally install a 12 foot pound tune kit, which makes it even easier to shoot accurately. The HW97 shoots well out of the box especially compared to other air gun makers. I started out with a Beeman R-1 aka Weihrauch HW80 25 years ago. That was after owning a Gamo.

Thanks for the reply, do you find that the aftermarket springs are better than the original part? I was going to order some spare parts just to have in case something happened to the gun in the future. I plan on shooting more field target matches this season and would like to have parts on hand if and when something breaks.

 

[jlowe]

Definitely better than factory. Personally, if I were shooting competition, I would invest in the entire kit with spring, guide, top hat and piston seal.

 

[Kragman1]

Just to add - quality springs are a combination of metallurgy and temper, and forming skill. Jim Macari (Air Rifle Headquarters) and Titan XS springs are just two good ones.

 

[hameditor]

Having owned a few dozen quality springers in my half-century of spring-piston experience with them, some observations.

1) As is not unusual in mechanical gizmos, 'quality' is largely a European-manufacture thing.
2) Most of my quality springers have been HWs. Most suffered spring fatigue or FAILURE within a couple thousand rounds.
3) Hence, HW springers only qualify as 'quality' when fitted with aftermarket springs.
4) Then, they're great.
5) Correction- though a well-adjusted Rekord trigger is impressive in how it trips, the adjustments and stamped-steel housing 'not so much'.
6) The Air Arms TX200, Pro Sport and Pro Elite are worthwhile in stock form.
6) Shortly before or after he retired from tuning springers, Paul Watts told me he doesn't feel the need to tune Pro Elites. Even his own.
7) Cheap springers have been responsible for stunting the growth of airgunning, virtue not only to their lack of dependability, but harsh firing behavior rendering them inaccurate in human hands.
8) Spring-piston rifles are the most difficult to master of any, and (non-recoilless) spring-pistols magnitudes moreso. In fact I consider non-recoilless spring-piston pistols the most difficult of all guns to master to any degree(s) of accuracy.
9) These observations are both spring-piston attractants, and repellants.
10) Which brings to mind some adages. A) "Pick your poison." B) "One man's trash is another man's treasure." C) "There is hardly anything that someone, somewhere can't produce worse and cheaper; and he who considers price alone is this man's lawful prey."

Thanks for the outstanding analysis of the spring/piston airgun!

In particular, I agree with your point 7. Sadly I feel that the airgun industry has done a huge disservice to itself and its customers by selling over-powerful springers indiscriminately to newcomers, without providing the expectations and education essential for the average user to succeed when shooting them.

Hmmmm.....

Maybe that's a controversial opinion! I'll be interested to hear what others think

 

[pan60]

Thanks for the outstanding analysis of the spring/piston airgun!

In particular, I agree with your point 7. Sadly I feel that the airgun industry has done a huge disservice to itself and its customers by selling over-powerful springers indiscriminately to newcomers, without providing the expectations and education essential for the average user to succeed when shooting them.

Hmmmm.....

Maybe that's a controversial opinion! I'll be interested to hear what others think

I know my humble experience with what I assume was cheap springers including my last one ( with I still have ) a Diana have really turned me off to springers sad because with some better up front knowledge I might not have that view.

 

[Kragman1]

Well, I feel like I have 1 foot on either side of that argument, so I might as well chime in....

First - the experienced shooters are quite right when they say that accuracy is everything. And "back in the day", tuning down heavy rifles to be even more gentle shooting rifles was clearly the thing to do. Go shoot a quality older airgun that stacks pellets as if by magic and tell me your heart doesn't pick up the pace. Go ahead - I dare you....
BUT - I feel that some of the older shooters are stuck in their ways, and have never seriously considered some of the modern improvements. They should - there are plenty of good ones.

Because - more velocity IS a good thing, at least until you get up around 900 fps.
Modern, powerful guns benefit from things like the longer compression column that did the trick for the FWB 124, piston seals (Vortek anyone?) that produce more power using the same spring AND better cushion the piston landing, better transfer port design, etc. And lighter but still good quality construction, a la HW95. These are improvements in my eyes.

I want power, but not at the exclusion of accuracy. Maybe power to weight ratio is a more valuable yardstick for us than simple power/velocity numbers. But even power to weight won't tell the full story.

For example - whether you're hunting or shooting Field Target, would you rather shoot an FTT pellet at a loopy 600 fps (the old target standard for clean holes on paper) over a much flatter 850 fps? With much less time to target meaning less wind drift? Methinks not...

And a huge rifle really isnt required to make big power - I have two .22 springers of light weight and high power output - a coil spring RWS 94/Cometa 400 that's probably 35 years old, and a very recent gas ram BSA Meteor. Both make close to 20fpe (which is R1 territory), but are full sized yet very light. The RWS is getting bouncy with its extra power (from break in) but the BSA is not bouncy. It has an almost invisible shot cycle with gentle thump at the end. Both are very accurate. The BSA is full length yet weighs 6.2 lbs without a scope. It does right around 800 fps with a 14 grain Miesterkugeln for 20 fpe. So does my much heavier Hatsan 95 in .22, and the Hatsan has a much rougher firing cycle and much heavier cocking effort. The BSA (a model with Gamo DNA right down to its plastic breech block) makes 90% of the power my Diana 350 NTEC does, is (on paper) better in every way but for the trigger.

So, it may be time for us all to stop using old standards to predict accuracy performance. Too many variables now, especually for the modern guns.
Let's just try to tune each rifle to IT'S optimum, and see what that looks like, case by case.

 

[Danman]

Longevity is (Thankfully!!) something the OEs push for when making a good springer. I'm talking Air Arms, Diana, H.W. here.... having dumped $1200 Cdn myself on a TX last year I couldn't believe people get this new expensive gun and rip the beautiful stock and slap on some custom adjustable one or gut it and swap out the presumably excellent quality OE internals. But us guys can't leave well enough alone can we!? I have seen plenty of people spend all kinds of money to get that 3/4in group @40Y (mine currently) down to say a 1/2in. Some people will spend quite a heap on that, or endless hours tuning. No matter how good something is, someone will come along and tweak it just a little bit better. Now when you go with a TBT, Vortek or the like, what do you usually sacrifice? Longevity of the parts! There is almost always a trade off. I definitely can see myself drop some dough on some custom internals for mine someday... just to see/feel the difference!

 

[jps2486]

Thanks for the outstanding analysis of the spring/piston airgun!

In particular, I agree with your point 7. Sadly I feel that the airgun industry has done a huge disservice to itself and its customers by selling over-powerful springers indiscriminately to newcomers, without providing the expectations and education essential for the average user to succeed when shooting them.

Hmmmm.....

Maybe that's a controversial opinion! I'll be interested to hear what others think

10-4 on the over powered guns. Newbies are attracted by the propaganda (lies) printed on the box that says the gun will shoot 1500 fps then find out that it’s more like 900 plus the gun shoots like a vibrating rattletrap.

Most of my springers have been HWs with a TX200 and RWS52 mixed in. The 52 was a harsh shooting rifle which I promptly sold. In truth, if I detuned it to a lower power level, it would have been a fine gun. Then, over the years, I bought several HWs: Beeman R8, R7, R9, HW95, HW97K. The lower powered R7 and R8 were delightful to shoot and I left them alone. The others were kind of snappy and hard to cock, so I Installed Vortek 12 fpe kits and they turned out well. The last one, HW95 was destined to be my SHTF gun, but knowing HWs reputation for poor springs, I put in a Vortek HO kit. It shot smoother and more accurately and power was right up there with the OEM setup. I shot it a lot trying to cure the boredom of this long Wisconsin winter and my arms felt like Popeye. Too much for an old man.

Which brings me to my TX200. In stock form, it shot well, but I thought it hard to cock. I was going to use it more for target or FT, so I installed a Vortek 12 fpe kit which turned this into a pussycat. Note that it’s so much easier to do this compared to the HWs. It got set aside while I played with the 95. After a couple of evenings shooting the 95 to break in the new kit, I brought out the TX to change scopes. I started shooting it to zero in the scope and immediately noticed how easy it was to cock and how pleasant the shot cycle was. What the hell did I do with the 95? Methinks I made a big mistake installing a high power kit just to get 50 or so fps. I’m going to detune that one to 12 fpe. I guess I fell for the power thing but no more.

Notes:
1. Tuning is nothing more than replacing factory parts with quality aftermarket stuff. I’m not partial to any one company because I used Vortek. The others like ARH or Tinbum have their following. The key is to clean out the crappy factory grease, de-burr any rough edges, and install new parts following the manufacturer’s instructions. Don’t be tempted to “make it better “ by slathering up the parts with other lubricants you know nothing about. IMO, professional tuners are not needed unless you are a klutz. There are some good YouTube instructional videos out there.

2. I have a good friend in Florida who I consider a TX200 expert. He has at least 8 of them of various Marks and has tuned them every which way conceivable, all at 12 fpe for FT and he’s darned good at it, but doesn’t compete much because of other obligations. But when he does, watch out. My point is he feels that the factory TX springs are as good as any.

Sorry for the long wheeze.

 

[Kragman1]

FWIW - I've never had an HW spring fail on me but I shoot in a large rotation, and not very often. My usage is not a good indicator.

That said, I've got a couple of '60s HW's that I believe have original springs still, and a bunch of Diana's in the same boat. Some clearly used plenty, still going strong. I'm guessing that says something about old school quality.

 

[Danman]

FWIW - I've never had an HW spring fail on me but I shoot in a large rotation, and not very often. My usage is not a good indicator.

That said, I've got a couple of '60s HW's that I believe have original springs still, and a bunch of Diana's in the same boat. Some clearly used plenty, still going strong. I'm guessing that says something about old school quality.

I recall Hateful McNasty would change out his HW spring yearly? (he shot his ALOT though) coils would snap and he'd loose some fps. The HWs twang a bunch more than the Diana's and Air Arms outta the box apparently. Nothing some work/parts won't fix. My .177 TX is 13FPE and absolutely lovely....I imagine in Sub12 it would be a bit better yet. I recently oversprung my Slavia 630 project gun....it was terrible and only gained 40 or so fps until internals/triggered jammed. I am gonna chop and bend that Vortek spring (cost about 2/3 of the gun after shipping ) and I'll bet I'll actually GAIN fps. But if it ain't smooth/accurate it's getting torn apart again. If I want power? I reach for a pcp, much more pleasant.

 

[Kragman1]

Quite from jps2486 - "10-4 on the over powered guns. Newbies are attracted by the propaganda (lies) printed on the box that says the gun will shoot 1500 fps then find out that it’s more like 900 plus the gun shoots like a vibrating rattletrap."
In my experience, this is absolutely true, especially the blatant lies many companies package their products in. Crude power does very little for me, but precise power is a very different thing in my opinion.

The big exception to that would be a rifle like my Hatsan 125 (which is surprisingly decent). If you actually need/want a utility grade "hammer" for some reason, it's a good choice. 32 fpe @ sea level, reasonable to cock thanks to the coil spring and long barrel, and pretty accurate. Good cycle too. If you have serious control needs, or just need to shoot through a block of ice with a springer, that's my recommendation.

But to me there is a definite zone between very mild, target velocity rifles whose pellets become wistful & windblown outdoors and heavy, awkward Magnums that may be mechanically accurate - but you'll never really know because they are so hard to control.

I like the Diana 34/HW95 level springers best, but I have a few easy cocking, easy shooting high output rifles (all in .22) that are in the 18-22 fpe range which are excellent shooters. I would love to see the Germans adopt some of the approaches others have taken with good results.

 

[jlowe]

Quite from jps2486 - "10-4 on the over powered guns. Newbies are attracted by the propaganda (lies) printed on the box that says the gun will shoot 1500 fps then find out that it’s more like 900 plus the gun shoots like a vibrating rattletrap."
In my experience, this is absolutely true, especially the blatant lies many companies package their products in. Crude power does very little for me, but precise power is a very different thing in my opinion.

The big exception to that would be a rifle like my Hatsan 125 (which is surprisingly decent). If you actually need/want a utility grade "hammer" for some reason, it's a good choice. 32 fpe @ sea level, reasonable to cock thanks to the coil spring and long barrel, and pretty accurate. Good cycle too. If you have serious control needs, or just need to shoot through a block of ice with a springer, that's my recommendation.

But to me there is a definite zone between very mild, target velocity rifles whose pellets become wistful & windblown outdoors and heavy, awkward Magnums that may be mechanically accurate - but you'll never really know because they are so hard to control.

I like the Diana 34/HW95 level springers best, but I have a few easy cocking, easy shooting high output rifles (all in .22) that are in the 18-22 fpe range which are excellent shooters. I would love to see the Germans adopt some of the approaches others have taken with good results.

I wonder what the market is like for springers as it seems every time I try to buy an HW or a Diana, they are out of stock. It does't seem like they import very many. Either that or I have bad timing.

 

[Kragman1]

I've wondered too. It's hard to get a read.

 

[Danman]

I wonder what the market is like for springers as it seems every time I try to buy an HW or a Diana, they are out of stock. It does't seem like they import very many. Either that or I have bad timing.

I hear you guys on that! Up here our HW dealer (D&L Airguns) just recently stocked up on rifles and we have alot of models to chose from. The previous year there was pretty much nothing HW avaliable, just a few of the oddballs left. Diana and AA rifles same thing....just hope you don't plan to buy one when stock is out, sometimes you will be waiting 6 months to a year