My comment got “altered or removed” from another forum. I LOVE HAM!!

[subscriber]

Thanks, FL22

Not much point in asking for a steak, if I happened to stumble into a vegan restaurant by mistake. If I am wrong about what is on the menu, I want to know before I get to the table.

 

[FL22]

Thanks, FL22

Not much point in asking for a steak, if I happened to stumble into a vegan restaurant by mistake. If I am wrong about what is on the menu, I want to know before I get to the table.

Plus you have to face all that stigma for wearing a
People Eating Tasty Animals shirt.

 

[hameditor]

Well, it was the rule changes at AGN that motivated me to join HAM. Rather than looking for an opportunity to express unhappiness, I would like you to understand the extent of AGN's new policy. And, how my actions unintentionally "helped" precipitate those changes:

New AGN Policy: The reselling of any and all unmodified detachable commercial airgun moderators is banned on AGN, via their classified section. So, something that is sold, bought and used by airgunners in the belief that these products are legal is now considered illegal by AGN. Either AGN ownership knows of a law change, or are concerned about being held accountable for potentially illegal actions they did not commit. On top of this, all discussion about making or altering airgun moderators is now forbidden on AGN; including the sharing of images and of design files.

While the classified ban is telling, I am not connected to that. However, I am in part responsible for the attitude change towards moderators in general:

My Confession: I am guilty of designing custom airgun moderators and shroud inserts, and then showing the designs on AGN. My Avatar image here is of my Shorty muffler design for the Huben pistol. Apparently showing a section image of the spiral baffle inside contributed to the AGN rule change. On top of that I shared the STL file for this moderator, and a number of other more conventional looking ones, that I gifted to the airgun community.

The argument is that showing people the inside of an airgun moderator is helping them to make one for PBs. If someone is going to make an illegal PB device, everyone already knows about hardware store pipe and washers. AGN's underlying argument is to avoid blurring the line between airguns and PBs. While that sounds reasonable, that ship seems to have sailed, ballistically speaking, with big bore airguns. Taken to its logical conclusion, this could end up promoting a sub 12 FPE / FAC type legal distinction. But that is not what this is about.

The last straw for AGN was a poll about airgun moderator mounting threads, where someone suggested adding common PB threads. Anyone who makes an "airgun" moderator with PB threads, or adds an adaptor displays intent to break the law. In my opinion, they should face prosecution, without that having any bearing on the intended use by the rest of us, of airgun moderators that sport airgun attachment thread patterns. As such, I would refuse to do a custom design for any 3D printable moderator having threads that suggest illegal intent.

If the argument is that someone could add an adaptor using common hardware store parts, the counter argument seems to be that they could make a complete device from hardware store pipe and washers. And, if they adapted an airgun moderator or made a complete one for a PB (without legal permission), such individuals would be breaking the law. Not Huggett, or DonnyFL; or a custom airgun shroud or moderator maker, or designer.

If the images below violate the rules on this forum, I will gladly take them down. I emailed the HAM forum owner a few days ago to ask about the rules governing the discussion of custom airgun shrouds and moderators. After not getting a reply, I decided to join the forum anyway. Now, the question appears to be, does the HAM forum serve to "chum the water" for the sales of commercial airgun products only? Or does it also encourage the development of new ideas by mere enthusiasts, starting with custom designs and general tinkering; potentially resulting in new and improved commercial products in the future?

As my sharing of designs on AGN started with a custom short offset moderator for the Huben GK1 pistol, that is what I am sharing below. The reason I posted it on AGN was because I was approached by an AGN member to design this muffler for him. As I did it for free, I felt that sharing it with more interested parties should be OK.

The request was for a less than 3 inch long offset muffler, that would not block the open sights. The general shape was to compliment that of the Huben pistol. It would also enable snag free holster use; hence the slanted front end. With such a small volume to work with, my goal was hearing safe. According to the original requester, the performance exceeds expectations. Due to the odd outer shape constraining the internal space and volume, I elected to use a spiral shaped blast chamber, to "trap" air and slow its exit. Unfortunately all the development and testing details on AGN are no longer visible.

Anyway, if the HAM forum would rather not see such designs, nor host discussions about how to make conventional looking airgun shrouds or moderators more effective, with improved grouping ability, then I won't post any more of them. On the other hand, if there is interest, without objection from HAM, I am willing to share more designs, so others may benefit from them.

Consider this my introductory post on HAM




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Hello @subscriber. Thanks for your first post in the HAM Community. You raise a number of important points and I would like to think about them before replying in detail.

However I can immediately address one thing. You did not receive a response from me to your email because - unfortunately - I did not receive it. Dunno why, but I will certainly check my SPAM filter to see if it's there. Apologies for this...

Please give me some time to give your post the attention and thought it deserves. I will post the reply here in the open for complete transparency.

Steve

 

[subscriber]

Thank you, Steve

I can't ask for more than that.

EDIT: I used the the HAM contact info to email you, if that helps: Contact Us - Hard Air Magazine
I copied the text I sent there, for my own records - pasted below:

Hi,

Does the HAM forum permit the discussion of custom made shrouds and airgun moderators? The AGN Forum just banned such discussion, along with reselling commercial moderators such as DFL on their classifieds.

A number of people would like to talk about and trade legal airgun sound suppression. This includes replacing stock shroud or moderator baffles. Or making custom shrouds, baffles or moderators for airguns.

If you have rules surrounding this topic, the intent would be to abide by them. However, there would be little point in joining the HAM Forum if such discussion is disallowed, or frowned upon.

Thank you

 

[IMADMAN]

I just joined. Came to check it out as a couple of newer members here have a wealth of knowledge.

 

[pan60]

Thank you, Steve

I can't ask for more than that.

EDIT: I used the the HAM contact info to email you, if that helps: Contact Us - Hard Air Magazine
I copied the text I sent there, for my own records - pasted below:

Hi,

Does the HAM forum permit the discussion of custom made shrouds and airgun moderators? The AGN Forum just banned such discussion, along with reselling commercial moderators such as DFL on their classifieds.

A number of people would like to talk about and trade legal airgun sound suppression. This includes replacing stock shroud or moderator baffles. Or making custom shrouds, baffles or moderators for airguns.

If you have rules surrounding this topic, the intent would be to abide by them. However, there would be little point in joining the HAM Forum if such discussion is disallowed, or frowned upon.

Thank you

i think its a valuable topic myself.

 

[Oldspook]

I want to take the opportunity to add this as it seems to be a fitting point in the conversation.

This 3rd Circuit Court Decision in Crooker has clarified the difference between a regulated device and an unregulated device and limits what BATF can call a regulated device. After reading the decision multiple times I drew a flowchart. Here it is:


This leads me to the conclusion that one needs demonstrate intent to obey the law and that an important component of that demonstration is the building of single purpose devices. If you don't intend the device for a PB AND the device requires modification to be useful on a PB then you have met the judges interpretation. And by the way, no amount of printing "Airgun Use Only" will remedy the violation of creating a device which is useful on a firearm without modification.

That, I think, is the definitive word on what constitutes a device which would be regulated by the NFA according to the 3rd Circuit Court. Other's opinions may vary but I refuse to live my life cowering in a corner worrying about what might happen. If you can't trust the opinion of a federal Court of Appeals judge you for darn sure can't trust the opinion of some yahoo on the Internet who is determined to control your rights. Too much said, I suppose.

That touches upon the idea that discussing any aspect of muzzle blast suppression, including the thread patterns for PBs should be disallowed because someone else wants to cower in the corner worrying about what might happen if you mention the "Agency Which May Not Be Named". That demonstrates a level of naivete' which borders on childishness. If I don't know what thread patterns are used with PBs, how am I to avoid using them? So in the case of the offending poll (at AGN), information which would be useful for facilitating compliance to the interpretation shown above has been censored.

If talking about the construction of airgun silencers leads to unfavorable attention from the BATF, why has a crop of new builders of those devices flourished on the Internet in this country over the past decade or so? We have one court case against one prominent vendor and in a year and a half no information about what that vendor did to receive that scrutiny, why not? That seems odd, doesn't it? It is almost like that vendor doesn't want us to know.

That said, the AG communities unwillingness to associate itself with the NRA and other shooting sports advocates is self-defeating. Our fervent desire to refuse the protection of 2A is self-defeating. That is a whole other discussion but if an AG is not a weapon you have no more Constutional protection to possess it than you have to possess a shovel or a hammer. They can take it, license it, or tax it in anyway they want at any time and you will have no recourse. There are not enough airgunners in the nation to push back against the outright banning of all airguns. United we stand, divided we fall.

That's my two. I don't want a fight and you are welcome to your own opinion. That is simply mine. If you want to go cower in a corner, help yourself, just don't try to make me do the same.

 

[Farmplinker2]

Well, it was the rule changes at AGN that motivated me to join HAM. Rather than looking for an opportunity to express unhappiness, I would like you to understand the extent of AGN's new policy. And, how my actions unintentionally "helped" precipitate those changes:

New AGN Policy: The reselling of any and all unmodified detachable commercial airgun moderators is banned on AGN, via their classified section. So, something that is sold, bought and used by airgunners in the belief that these products are legal is now considered illegal by AGN. Either AGN ownership knows of a law change, or are concerned about being held accountable for potentially illegal actions they did not commit. On top of this, all discussion about making or altering airgun moderators is now forbidden on AGN; including the sharing of images and of design files.

While the classified ban is telling, I am not connected to that. However, I am in part responsible for the attitude change towards moderators in general:

My Confession: I am guilty of designing custom airgun moderators and shroud inserts, and then showing the designs on AGN. My Avatar image here is of my Shorty muffler design for the Huben pistol. Apparently showing a section image of the spiral baffle inside contributed to the AGN rule change. On top of that I shared the STL file for this moderator, and a number of other more conventional looking ones, that I gifted to the airgun community.

The argument is that showing people the inside of an airgun moderator is helping them to make one for PBs. If someone is going to make an illegal PB device, everyone already knows about hardware store pipe and washers. AGN's underlying argument is to avoid blurring the line between airguns and PBs. While that sounds reasonable, that ship seems to have sailed, ballistically speaking, with big bore airguns. Taken to its logical conclusion, this could end up promoting a sub 12 FPE / FAC type legal distinction. But that is not what this is about.

The last straw for AGN was a poll about airgun moderator mounting threads, where someone suggested adding common PB threads. Anyone who makes an "airgun" moderator with PB threads, or adds an adaptor displays intent to break the law. In my opinion, they should face prosecution, without that having any bearing on the intended use by the rest of us, of airgun moderators that sport airgun attachment thread patterns. As such, I would refuse to do a custom design for any 3D printable moderator having threads that suggest illegal intent.

If the argument is that someone could add an adaptor using common hardware store parts, the counter argument seems to be that they could make a complete device from hardware store pipe and washers. And, if they adapted an airgun moderator or made a complete one for a PB (without legal permission), such individuals would be breaking the law. Not Huggett, or DonnyFL; or a custom airgun shroud or moderator maker, or designer.

If the images below violate the rules on this forum, I will gladly take them down. I emailed the HAM forum owner a few days ago to ask about the rules governing the discussion of custom airgun shrouds and moderators. After not getting a reply, I decided to join the forum anyway. Now, the question appears to be, does the HAM forum serve to "chum the water" for the sales of commercial airgun products only? Or does it also encourage the development of new ideas by mere enthusiasts, starting with custom designs and general tinkering; potentially resulting in new and improved commercial products in the future?

As my sharing of designs on AGN started with a custom short offset moderator for the Huben GK1 pistol, that is what I am sharing below. The reason I posted it on AGN was because I was approached by an AGN member to design this muffler for him. As I did it for free, I felt that sharing it with more interested parties should be OK.

The request was for a less than 3 inch long offset muffler, that would not block the open sights. The general shape was to compliment that of the Huben pistol. It would also enable snag free holster use; hence the slanted front end. With such a small volume to work with, my goal was hearing safe. According to the original requester, the performance exceeds expectations. Due to the odd outer shape constraining the internal space and volume, I elected to use a spiral shaped blast chamber, to "trap" air and slow its exit. Unfortunately all the development and testing details on AGN are no longer visible.

Anyway, if the HAM forum would rather not see such designs, nor host discussions about how to make conventional looking airgun shrouds or moderators more effective, with improved grouping ability, then I won't post any more of them. On the other hand, if there is interest, without objection from HAM, I am willing to share more designs, so others may benefit from them.

Consider this my introductory post on HAM




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Yeah, I had a post over there yanked because I asked about airgun manufacturers offering barrels threaded for any PB suppressor some of us own. I made it obvious I had a legal can, but DANGER! DANGER! PB MENTION! was the reaction

 

[hameditor]

Hello again @subscriber.

1. Thank you for trying to email me to discuss this issue before posting. I'm sure you sent that email but equally sure I did not receive it. Our webmaster is investigating this.

2. As is clear to most, the precise legal situation regarding aftermarket silencers, moderators, shrouds - call them what you will - is very complex in the airgun context. Few - I believe - would not agree that this is a somewhat "disputable area" from a legal perspective, due to the actual, potential or perceived relationship to firearms legislation.

3. That "disputable area" status translates to risk to a business. All businesses take risk management decisions all the time. So I have taken that decision for Hard Air Magazine, the Hard Air Magazine Community, Archer Airguns Inc. (which owns HAM) and myself.

4. The decision is that the HAM Community will NOT accept discussion of custom made, aftermarket, silencers, moderators, shrouds or similar noise-reduction devices. Nor - if we have a Classified Sales Category - will we allow them to be advertised there.

5. Please be clear, my aim is not to censor. In fact, I have gone back and reviewed the existing HAM Rule 5.11 that already specifically relates to the design and construction of silencers. This rule is up-held. Like all institutions - the HAM Community has Rules that are intended to protect both it and its participants. This is still a HAM Rule.

6. I can see both sides of the argument and understand that this decision will be unpopular with some. However it has been made after due consideration of all the factors involved. Thanks for your understanding.

This thread is closed. Let's move on...